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Archiver > DNA-R1B1C7 > 2008-11 > 1228097194
From:
Subject: Re: [R-M222] NPE Frequency
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 21:06:34 EST
In a message dated 11/29/2008 5:41:32 A.M. Central Standard Time,
writes:
This seems quite relevant to me in considering for instance the DNA of
purportedly Dalriadic descendants. In particular, the roughly 10% R1b1c7
found in Clan McDonald would seem to be about what one would expect if they
were originally R1b1c7.
I have some questions about the 10% of McDonalds who are R1b1c7.
How do we know which McDonalds they are? McDonald was also a common surname
in Ireland during the 17th century (it occurs throughout the 1659 census).
Secondly, why do we assume that all McDonalds in Scotland are connected to
the Argyllshire/western Isles McDonalds? The surname could have arisen
independently in any number of locations in Scotland with no links between origins.
I haven't looked at the R1b1c7 McDonalds in the project but I have to wonder
how many are linked with definite locations for their ancestors?
Third, there are several possibilities for a fairly late introduction of
R1b1c7 into western Scotland. One is the Columban monastery at Iona. A second
is the McDonald legend that an early 16th century McDonald chieftain married
an O Cathain from Ulster and she brought with her to Scotland a very large
and unusual retinue of fighting men from Ulster, from which, Hugh McDonald
claimed in the 17th century, arose a score of surnames in Scotland.
If the original DNA of Dal Riata was R1b1c7 we might expect to find R1b1c7
dominant in the areas once controlled in NE Ulster by the Ulaidh, Dal Fiatach
or Dal Riata. That is their origin story (ie, the sons of Erc of the Irish
Dal Riata founding the Dal Riata of Scotland). Yet in Ireland R1b1c7 is not
strong in NE Ulster. In fact according to the DNA gradient map of Trinity
college R1b1c7 is scarcely present in NE Ulster at levels similar to those of
Munster or Leinster.
I personally have no idea yet how, why or when R1b1c7 came to Scotland. For
all I know it could have originated somewhere in Scotland and since it's
heaviest in the lowlands, that's a more likely possibility. Even if it did
originate in Ireland I have no idea how or when it came to Scotland. And I doubt
at this point it's possible to attempt to associate the DNA with a specific
tribe or territory.
Surnames in Scotland seem to have been very fluid. Black (Surnames of
Scotland) mentions visiting a man who went by one surname ten years previously but
when visited again had taken a different surname because, he said, he moved
over the hill. That's somewhat similar to the well known parttaker syndrome
where people just assumed the surname of the local chieftains. NPEs in
Scotland of this sort are probably the norm, not unusual events.
The original McDonalds in Scotland were descendants of Somerled (R1a). Who
knows what the Dal Riata clans were prior to that? They were probably a
mixture of a lot of different DNA. All they have is a vague Scot modal which
appears to match quite a few "Dal Riata" clan surnames and it is not R1b1c7.
And according to John McEwan who discovered the modal, it hardly appears in
Ireland.
Some archeologists, mostly notably Ewan Campbell, do not believe there ever
was a migration of Scots from NE Ireland to Dal Riata in Scotland (Were the
Scots Irish?). He thinks the tale of the sons of Erc was just another faked
origin story. Instead he sees a population common to both NE Ireland and Dal
Riatic Scotland. Neither population migrated en masse to the other location.
John
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