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Archiver > DNA-R1B1C7 > 2008-11 > 1228040260


From: "Sandy Paterson" <>
Subject: Re: [R-M222] NPE Frequency
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 10:17:40 -0000
References: <e0d2d2870810280721g1af361d4y8d7be2d00132e9e2@mail.gmail.com> <000001c93a77$4be7ee20$e3b7ca60$@com> <000001c93a82$de6c9fb0$9b45df10$@com> <000001c93f3b$7b41f3f0$71c5dbd0$@com> <000001c95183$fe39b450$faad1cf0$@com><BAY119-W257FD25ED267E572F773D5D5070@phx.gbl>
In-Reply-To: <BAY119-W257FD25ED267E572F773D5D5070@phx.gbl>


Hi Steve

I agree that social behaviour changes over time, but I seriously doubt
whether mankind's natural functions have changed much over the centuries.
But yes, it is a difficult thing to nail down and my calculations were
intended to be illustrative - I make no claims that they are definitive.

What they illustrate, I believe, is that the assumption of a continuous
passing down of a blood-line in a family over many generations is badly
flawed, and is likely to lead to spurious conclusions.

Good luck with your project - I'll see if I can find it.


Sandy





-----Original Message-----
From:
[mailto:] On Behalf Of Steven Lominac
Sent: 29 November 2008 15:41
To:
Subject: Re: [R-M222] NPE Frequency


It happened exactly that way in my own family. My brother and his
girlfriend didn't work out at a very young age. The subsequent son took on
his mom's surname. My nephew has a different surname even though he is of
the male line and one day if he wants to test I am assuming we we will be an
exact match. I am curently talking to some Lomenech's in France as I have
just commenced a DNA project in FTDNA and got a reply from Christelle
Lomenech as such:

"Hello Steven,I'm Christelle, Charles daughter. Our surname, Lomenech,
appeared in Bretagne to the 11th century.In Bretagne, we have an historic
language, the "breton". In breton, the origin of Lomenech is "Loc" (place)
and "Menec'h" (monk).It wants to say "the place of the monk". Our ancestors
thus lived near a monastery. My researches stopped there for the moment."

I guess the point being there will be a number of people with this surname
over this 8-9 centuries that will not match me for one reason or another as
Sandy pointed out but.....I don't know if you can equate today's social
order (chaotic as far as unwed mother's etc. is concerned) with centuries
past. That number seems high Sandy but that's pure conjecture on my part.

Steve Lominac > From: > To:
> Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 18:06:09 +0000> Subject: Re:
[R-M222] NPE Frequency> > Hi All> > I found one estimate that the number of
adopted people in the USA is> somewhere between 6m and 10m, so 3% of the
population may be about right.> > What I'm trying to estimate is that
proportion of males who have a surname> different to that of their natural
father. Apart from adoption, it can> happen when the family surname is
passed down a female line. This happens in> a young pregnancy where the
mother doesn't marry, and the child is given the> mother's maiden name as a
surname.> > Another way a child can end up with a surname other than that of
his or her> natural father is a young pregnancy, where the mother marries
someone other> than the natural father.> > Then there are the kind of NPE's
by which a child is fathered by someone> other than a married woman's
husband.> > There are probably other ways that I haven't thought of. > > All
in all, I'd say it wouldn't be far out to work on about 6% of male> children
ending up with a surname other than that of his natural father.> > The
implications of this are quite startling. It means that going back say> 50
generations, the chances of a male child having the Y-chromosones of his>
paper-trail 47xg-grandfather is only about about (.94)^50 = .0453> > This
seems quite relevant to me in considering for instance the DNA of>
purportedly Dalriadic descendants. In particular, the roughly 10% R1b1c7>
found in Clan McDonald would seem to be about what one would expect if they>
were originally R1b1c7.> > Any thought, anyone?> > > Sandy > > > > > > > > >
-----Original Message-----> From: >
[mailto:] On Behalf Of Sandy Paterson> Sent:
05 November 2008 11:42> To: > Subject: [R-M222] NPE
Frequency> > Does anyone in the group have a view on NPE frequency?> > For
purposes of the exercise, the definition of NPE includes teenage>
pregnancies where the mother either never marries, or marries someone other>
than the natural father of the child).> > > Sandy Paterson> > R1b1c7
Research and Links:> > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/>;
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