DNA-R1B1C7-L Archives

Archiver > DNA-R1B1C7 > 2008-10 > 1223619095


From: yair <>
Subject: Re: [DNA-R1B1C7] Dubious Paternity descriptions
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 08:11:35 +0200
References: <d01.3ff684ac.361fddf5@aol.com><200810092341.m99NfLBR010954@mail.rootsweb.com>
In-Reply-To: <200810092341.m99NfLBR010954@mail.rootsweb.com>


At 02:24 AM 10/10/2008, you wrote:
>Perhaps I've asked these questions before, but I'm still confused:
>
>1. Why don't all people who are supposed matches of Nial get tested to
>the 67th level marker? Wouldn't that help in narrowing the
>field/understanding the geographic reach of his ancestors?

How would that help me?
I have a test with 30 (31) markers.
I found about 9 exact matches with 7 addresses. I wrote to all seven.
One replied
and he asked if I have relatives in Cavan. I could not answer since I
do not know.
What use would a test with more markers be for me?
This is a serious question because if there is a good enough reason I
might eventually do it.
Otherwise I have more imperative financial demands on my limited resources.


>2. How many residents of Ireland and Scotland are in the database? It
>seems to me that would be very helpful.
>
>3. How many of the US participants actually know where their Y ancestor
>was from?
>
>4. Is anyone familiar with my father's Gaelic name:
>MacUalghairg/MacGoulrigg/MacGoldrick.Golden? My name is said to originate
>in Donegal, although my father's parents were from Mayo.
>
>
>
>And I'm somewhat disturbed by the statements of someone (I forget who) who
>suggested that nationality or ethnicity is irrelevant or beside the point.


I agree. It may not be a big deal but it is of interest and it is in
the same category as
filling in a genealogical trail.

>In my opinion, we all want to know that, even if it is hundreds of years
>ago. It's part of our genealogy; yes just one, but an important one. And on
>that point-to the person who is clearly a "Heinz 57," not everyone is. And
>it is these people, like the Basques and other self-contained "ethnics," who
>may provide interesting genetic clues to questions of heritability, medical
>mysteries, and other fascinating subjects.

If I remember correctly they say that haplogroup I has extra resistance to HIV
and possibly other afflictions. Is this not of interest?
Does it not suggest that additional phenomena may also be associated
with DNA findings?
Why was R1b1c7 so prolific compared to other categories?


>
>
>Marie Golden Kerr (on behalf of my father, James J. Golden)
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From:
>[mailto:] On Behalf Of
>Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 6:22 PM
>To:
>Subject: Re: [DNA-R1B1C7] Dubious Paternity descriptions
>
>
>
>In a message dated 10/9/2008 8:34:56 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
>
> writes:
>
>
>
>The short answer to the second parsing of the question is, "I don't know
>for
>
>sure, but I don't think so." I am sure John knows better than I. My
>
>impression is that there are a whole bunch of "non-Niell" surnames in
>
>R1b1c7, but I do not know if they constitute a majority, and regardless of
>
>whether they do or not, if the sampling is unbiased enough for us to make
>
>anything of the relative proportions.
>
>
>
>
>
>I don't think everyone who matches the R1b1c7 modal is Ui Neill (descended
>
>from Nial). As I've often repeated, even in Ireland there are no claims
>that
>
>every related family is a direct descendant of Nial. The chieftains of the
>
>
>Connachta also match the DNA and no one ever claimed they were Ui Neill.
>What
>
>about the typically English surnames that also match? Are they descendants
>
>
>of Niall? I doubt it. The DNA therefore goes back earlier than Nial. How
>
>
>far back is the question. And what that means depends mainly on where the
>
>ancestors of Nial lived.
>
>
>
>Even if Nial's R1b1c7 ancestor did originate in Ireland ca. 0 C.E. as
>recent
>
>TMRCA results indicate it would not mean all R1b1c7 are Ui Neill. They
>
>could have migrated to Scotland and England centuries prior to the time of
>Nial.
>
>
>
>Ui Neill is a very specific tribal designation given to descendants of Nial
>
>
>in Ireland only. This isn't chauvinism or exclusiveness. It's a fact.
>Nial
>
>is said to have had 14 sons but of these only eight had descendants traced
>
>in the manuscripts. The Ui Neill in Ireland basically boil down to the
>three
>
>sons of Nial in the NW and the tribes of the southern Ui Neill in the
>
>midlands.
>
>
>
>
>
>I don't really understand this fascination with Nial, except he is perhaps
>
>the best known of the ancient Irish High Kings.
>
>
>
>I have copies of old Scottish clan histories written before Skene published
>
>
>his Scottish pedigrees in his Celtic Scotland (Buchanan of Auchmar, 1723,
>
>Smibert, 1850). Quite a few of the Scottish clans claimed a descent from
>Nial
>
>in those old clan histories. There is a reason why they did this but it
>takes
>
>some explaining.
>
>
>
>Keating's History of Ireland contains two different versions of the Dal
>
>Riata foundation legend. In Keating we find two sets of the Fergus Mor,
>Angus
>
>and Loarn brothers. One is said to descend from Erc, the king of the Irish
>
>
>Dal Riata. The second set is said to descend from Muirdoch, a grandson of
>
>Nial. Keating attempted to reconcile the two versions, proposing that the
>first
>
>set of Fergus Mor and his brothers descended from Erc came to Scotland
>first,
>
>several centuries earlier than the traditional founding date of the
>Scottish
>
>Dal Riata. The second set came to Scotland ca. 500 AD. and these were
>
>"descendants of Nial." You can read exactly the same thing in John
>O'Hart's
>
>pedigrees of the Scottish Dal Riata.
>
>
>
>This Nial origin legend did not begin with Keating. The Norman Geraldus
>
>Cambrensis (of Wales) quoted a short version of it as early as 1200 A.D.
>There
>
>is even a curious line in the Shenchus Fer nAlban that might be a reference
>
>
>to the same legend:
>
>
>
>" Others say that this Erc had another son who was called Muredoch."
>
>
>
>Why Muredoch? For a possible answer look at the Ui Neill pedigree.
>
>
>
>Nial 'of the Nine Hostages'
>
>Eoghan
>
>Muirdoch
>
>Muirchertach Mac Earca
>
>
>
>Some legends claim Muirchertach Mac Earca's mother was Earca, the daughter
>
>of King Loarn of Scotland.
>
>
>
>The Shenchus is thought to be a very old manuscript. Some date parts of it
>
>
>to as early as 800 AD. Others note it was re-written in part at a later
>
>date.
>
>
>
>So which origin story of the Scottish Dal Riata is correct? The descent
>
>from Erc of the Irish Dal Riata or the descent from Muredoch, a grandson of
>
>
>Nial? They're both old legends as the Gerald Cambrensis passage shows.
>The
>
>Shenchus should be even older but you never can be sure what the original
>version
>
>was.
>
>
>
>
>
>Personally I think the Nial version is a bunch of hooey. According to this
>
>
>Fergus Mor was a brother of Muircertach mac Earca and a son of Muredoch who
>
>
>married Earca, the daughter of King Loarn of Scotland. In this version
>
>Muirchertach mac Earca also had a brother, Fergus Mor who along with
>brothers Angus
>
>and Loarn settled in Scotland. The whole legend probably began in
>confusion
>
>over the name Muirchertach mac Earca and the name Erc in the Irish
>pedigrees
>
>of the Dal Riata of Antrim.
>
>
>
>
>
>If nothing else these two versions might help demonstrate the long-standing
>
>
>fascination with Nial in the Scottish highlands.
>
>
>
>Here's an example from Buchanan of Auchmar, 1723, talking about the Clan
>
>McNeill of Scotland.
>
>
>
>Keite, and other Irish Historians, derive the Origine of the Oneils from
>
>Neil, Son to Mileius, King of Gallicia in Spain, who with Hiber, Erimon ,
>and
>
>Ir, his Three Brethren, came with the First Gathelians, or Scots, who by
>
>Conquest of Etta, Ketur, and Tectius, Kings of the Dedannins, the ancient
>
>Inhabitants of that Kingdom, obtained the Soveraign Possession of the fame.
>The
>
>M'Neils of Scotland, a Branch of those of Ireland, are reported to have
>come here
>
>with the First Scots, who from Ireland planted Argyle-Shire, and the
>Western
>
>Isles, being for some Ages bypast divided into Two considerable Families,
>
>these of Barra, and Taynish,
>
>
>
>Keite is of course Keating. The McNeills here were claiming they came to
>
>Ireland with the first Scots from Ireland who planted Argyllshire, an
>obvious
>
>reference to the Dal Riata foundation legend. But of course in Keating's
>
>history it was great-grandchildren of Nial who first came to Scotland as
>the Dal
>
>Riata.
>
>
>
> I also think this business about Nial and the Scottish Dal Riata in
>
>Argyllshire also had some influence on the Anradan affair but that's
>another story.
>
>
>
>
>
>John
>
>
>
>
>
>
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>
>
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Yair Davidiy
POB 595
Jerusalem 91004
Israel

Brit-Am
http://www.britam.org

AND I WILL MAKE OF THEE A GREAT NATION, AND I WILL BLESS THEE, AND MAKE THY
NAME GREAT; AND THOU SHALT BE A BLESSING:

AND I WILL BLESS THEM THAT BLESS THEE...
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