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From:
Subject: Re: [DNA-R1B1C7] Dubious Paternity descriptions
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 18:21:41 EDT
In a message dated 10/9/2008 8:34:56 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
writes:
The short answer to the second parsing of the question is, "I don't know for
sure, but I don't think so." I am sure John knows better than I. My
impression is that there are a whole bunch of "non-Niell" surnames in
R1b1c7, but I do not know if they constitute a majority, and regardless of
whether they do or not, if the sampling is unbiased enough for us to make
anything of the relative proportions.
I don't think everyone who matches the R1b1c7 modal is Ui Neill (descended
from Nial). As I've often repeated, even in Ireland there are no claims that
every related family is a direct descendant of Nial. The chieftains of the
Connachta also match the DNA and no one ever claimed they were Ui Neill. What
about the typically English surnames that also match? Are they descendants
of Niall? I doubt it. The DNA therefore goes back earlier than Nial. How
far back is the question. And what that means depends mainly on where the
ancestors of Nial lived.
Even if Nial's R1b1c7 ancestor did originate in Ireland ca. 0 C.E. as recent
TMRCA results indicate it would not mean all R1b1c7 are Ui Neill. They
could have migrated to Scotland and England centuries prior to the time of Nial.
Ui Neill is a very specific tribal designation given to descendants of Nial
in Ireland only. This isn't chauvinism or exclusiveness. It's a fact. Nial
is said to have had 14 sons but of these only eight had descendants traced
in the manuscripts. The Ui Neill in Ireland basically boil down to the three
sons of Nial in the NW and the tribes of the southern Ui Neill in the
midlands.
I don't really understand this fascination with Nial, except he is perhaps
the best known of the ancient Irish High Kings.
I have copies of old Scottish clan histories written before Skene published
his Scottish pedigrees in his Celtic Scotland (Buchanan of Auchmar, 1723,
Smibert, 1850). Quite a few of the Scottish clans claimed a descent from Nial
in those old clan histories. There is a reason why they did this but it takes
some explaining.
Keating's History of Ireland contains two different versions of the Dal
Riata foundation legend. In Keating we find two sets of the Fergus Mor, Angus
and Loarn brothers. One is said to descend from Erc, the king of the Irish
Dal Riata. The second set is said to descend from Muirdoch, a grandson of
Nial. Keating attempted to reconcile the two versions, proposing that the first
set of Fergus Mor and his brothers descended from Erc came to Scotland first,
several centuries earlier than the traditional founding date of the Scottish
Dal Riata. The second set came to Scotland ca. 500 AD. and these were
"descendants of Nial." You can read exactly the same thing in John O'Hart's
pedigrees of the Scottish Dal Riata.
This Nial origin legend did not begin with Keating. The Norman Geraldus
Cambrensis (of Wales) quoted a short version of it as early as 1200 A.D. There
is even a curious line in the Shenchus Fer nAlban that might be a reference
to the same legend:
" Others say that this Erc had another son who was called Muredoch."
Why Muredoch? For a possible answer look at the Ui Neill pedigree.
Nial 'of the Nine Hostages'
Eoghan
Muirdoch
Muirchertach Mac Earca
Some legends claim Muirchertach Mac Earca's mother was Earca, the daughter
of King Loarn of Scotland.
The Shenchus is thought to be a very old manuscript. Some date parts of it
to as early as 800 AD. Others note it was re-written in part at a later
date.
So which origin story of the Scottish Dal Riata is correct? The descent
from Erc of the Irish Dal Riata or the descent from Muredoch, a grandson of
Nial? They're both old legends as the Gerald Cambrensis passage shows. The
Shenchus should be even older but you never can be sure what the original version
was.
Personally I think the Nial version is a bunch of hooey. According to this
Fergus Mor was a brother of Muircertach mac Earca and a son of Muredoch who
married Earca, the daughter of King Loarn of Scotland. In this version
Muirchertach mac Earca also had a brother, Fergus Mor who along with brothers Angus
and Loarn settled in Scotland. The whole legend probably began in confusion
over the name Muirchertach mac Earca and the name Erc in the Irish pedigrees
of the Dal Riata of Antrim.
If nothing else these two versions might help demonstrate the long-standing
fascination with Nial in the Scottish highlands.
Here's an example from Buchanan of Auchmar, 1723, talking about the Clan
McNeill of Scotland.
Keite, and other Irish Historians, derive the Origine of the Oneils from
Neil, Son to Mileius, King of Gallicia in Spain, who with Hiber, Erimon , and
Ir, his Three Brethren, came with the First Gathelians, or Scots, who by
Conquest of Etta, Ketur, and Tectius, Kings of the Dedannins, the ancient
Inhabitants of that Kingdom, obtained the Soveraign Possession of the fame. The
M'Neils of Scotland, a Branch of those of Ireland, are reported to have come here
with the First Scots, who from Ireland planted Argyle-Shire, and the Western
Isles, being for some Ages bypast divided into Two considerable Families,
these of Barra, and Taynish,
Keite is of course Keating. The McNeills here were claiming they came to
Ireland with the first Scots from Ireland who planted Argyllshire, an obvious
reference to the Dal Riata foundation legend. But of course in Keating's
history it was great-grandchildren of Nial who first came to Scotland as the Dal
Riata.
I also think this business about Nial and the Scottish Dal Riata in
Argyllshire also had some influence on the Anradan affair but that's another story.
John
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