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From:
Subject: Re: [DNA-R1B1C7] Dubious Paternity descriptions
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 18:36:37 EDT
In a message dated 10/8/2008 8:59:26 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
writes:
R1b1b2e is by no means absent from the Scottish Lowlands, and I don't know
of a good argument that it could not have been present among the native
Britons there. The Damnonii are the best candidates for the "original"
inhabitants of the area where Ewing probably emerged as a surname, though
they were long gone as a recognizable tribe by the time the surname emerged.
They may have been cousins of the Dumnonii in far SW Britain, but it is
simply silly to think of them as a kind of "pure" genetic type. They must
have been a mixed lot, even then. On this list, we often speak of the Ui
Neill as if they were all R1b1b2e. This is almost certainly false. Nobody is
"all" anything. And I have an idea that the Dumnonii were partly R1b1b2e.
The Domnonii are an interesting subject. What is known is a tribe of the
name appears in Ptolemy's map ca. 1150 in the upper lowlands of Scotland. A
few centuries later we have references to the Kingdom of Strathclyde in the
same territory, which included most of the western part of lowland Scotland down
into some of the counties of NW England. By 400 AD. there are references to
Coroticus as the King of Strathclyde (Ceretic Wledig). Ceretic is linked to
one of the tribes of the so-called northern Britons. No one really knows if
they were connected to the Domnonii or not though. He is said to appear in
a letter written by St. Patrick in Ireland asking him to stop his raids
there. There was a similarly named tribe in the SW of England but no historican
knows for sure if they represent the same tribe.
But I accept David's basic premise: there isn't any reason R1b1c7 could not
be found in some of the tribes in history known as northern Britons. The
so-called "Picts" weren't far away either.
As usual I have to quibble a little about the Ui Neill. Would you accept
the idea of being a "majority" of R1b1c7? That's what we're seeing in the DNA
of the Ui Neill in the NW of Ireland, in particular, in Donegal. The
Dohertys and McLaughlins, O'Gallaghers and O'Donnells, McGinleys and nearly every
Donegal sept with DNA samples is showing a majority of R1b1c7. They do have
some I and R1a members; some non matching R1b as well. This is especially true
in the line of the major chieftains. It really doesn't differ that much
from Syke's portrayal of the McDonald chieftains, where up to 30-40% of the clan
matched the DNA of the R1a chieftains. Except the percentages seem to be
higher in Ireland. Among the Dohertys and McLaughlins the R1b1c7 levels, as
far as can be determined, range from 70% or more.
In our McLaughin surname project we are handicapped by the fact that 90%
of our testees have no idea where their ancestors came from. All we can do is
cluster the DNA and then make decisions based on the few who do know where
their family came from. In doing that we may inadvertently omit some non
matching Donegal McLaughlins.
John
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