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Archiver > DNA-R1B1C7 > 2008-10 > 1223354602


From: "David Wilson" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA-R1B1C7] MRCA of R1b1b2e as early as 1388 CE??
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 21:43:22 -0700
References: <c70.309d7fb3.3616a609@aol.com><7.0.1.0.2.20081003103116.024aa7f0@netvision.net.il><A10FFD7CE9DF445284951984B214ACA8@DW1><7.0.1.0.2.20081005093023.025d1320@netvision.net.il>
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20081005093023.025d1320@netvision.net.il>


Yair,

First, a clarification. Any individual who carries or carried the M222 SNP
belongs/belonged to haplogroup R1b1b2e as it is currently termed by Family
Tree DNA and the YCC. The single individual in whom the M222 mutation first
occurred is clearly the common ancestor of all these individuals.

But that common ancestor is not necessarily the MOST RECENT common ancestor
of all M222+ who live today. The MRCA, based on statistical analyses of the
haplotypes of tested contemporaries, probably lived about 12 centuries ago,
give or take two or three centuries. The first M222+ individual may have
lived several centuries earlier, with all other descendant lineages
daughtering out.

Simply because the signature is found so strongly in Northern Ireland and
Southern Scotland today, it is most probable that the MRCA lived in that
area. But that does not mean the original M222+ individual lived in that
area.

Since we know that R-M222 is a sub branch of Haplogroup R-P312 (same as
R-S116), and since that haplogroup is broadly distributed in Central and
Western Europe, it is a safe bet that ancestors of the Irish and Scots M222+
came originally from Europe. But that tells us nothing about the time when
that happened or even if the M222 mutation occurred first in Europe and was
later carried to the British Isles.

David Wilson



-----Original Message-----
From:
[mailto:] On Behalf Of yair
Sent: Sunday, October 05, 2008 12:36 AM
To:
Subject: Re: [DNA-R1B1C7] MRCA of R1b1b2e as early as 1388 CE??

At 11:23 AM 10/3/2008, David Wilson <> wrote:
>Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2008 02:23:21 -0700
>From: David Wilson <>
>Subject: Re: [DNA-R1B1C7] MRCA of R1b1b2e as early as 1388 CE??
>
>I once believed that the NW Irish/Lowland Scot cluster represented the
>survivors of the first post-glacial-maximum inhabitants of what we now
>call Ireland. At a time when we thought that the majority of the most
>refined Haplogroup R subclades had been in Europe for more than 20,000
>years, that was not an impossible notion. But now I tend to look at the
>world with a more collapsed time frame. Do I think the common ancestor
>could have lived barely 600 years ago, as the subject line asks? No. Am
>I open to the possibility that the MRCA could have lived between 500 and
1000 CE? Yes.
>
>David Wilson

Thanks for your answer.
It was quite enlightening.

Forgive my ignorance but what are the implications for your statement:
##the MRCA could have lived between 500 and 1000 CE## ?

Does it mean that the common ancestor of all R1b1b2e may have lived then?
A portion of them?
If so, What portion?
How would this tie-in with suggested known historical scenarios?
Migrations to Lowland Scotland?
Europe?

Yair Davidiy
Jerusalem
Israel



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