RootsWeb: DNA-R1B1C7-L Re: [DNA-R1B1C7] Questions ???

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Archiver > DNA-R1B1C7 > 2008-10 > 1223200741

From: "Sandy Paterson" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA-R1B1C7] Questions ???
Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 10:59:01 +0100
References: <cbf.25e26ba2.36196b62@aol.com>
In-Reply-To: <cbf.25e26ba2.36196b62@aol.com>

Hi John Although I've read a fair amount about Scots genealogies, I am not sufficiently knowledgeable about the subject to engage you in debate. I know even less about Irish genealogy. But I accept that there are uncertainties and apparent contradictions. My queries, questions and observations relate solely to DNA. > The Lamonts, as I've been informed by yourself and others, have at least one R1b1c7 candidate. I've also found two R1a Lamonts. Since their pedigree in the Gaelic MS. ties into the line of the McDonalds (the chieftains of which are R1a) that might make some sense. > Two, John, not one : Lamont 94014 on the Lamont Family DNA Project site (but not in Ysearch); Angus Lamont, 8KPK6 in Ysearch. Both match the Ui Niall modal 59/67 > 6 of these samples are R1b1c7; six are not R1b1c7. Two of the R1b1c7 samples were given by close relatives. Since we do find some R1b1c7 among the Sweeneys does that verify the Anradan pedigree? Flip a coin. > I think this is well worth discussing. On balance I'd say this is indeed evidence consistent with a Sweeney connection to Anradans. It doesn't prove a connection, but it is consistent with it. This brings me to a question : What sort of DNA pattern would you reasonably expect in a group of haplotypes from Anradan descendants? A broad answer will do. > I do not think we have enough solid data yet to either confirm or reject the Anradan pedigree based on DNA. > I agree wholeheartedly. However, you also say > I reached my conclusions about the historicity of the Anradan kindred long before the DNA era. > So it seems to me you've already made up your mind. Sandy Paterson Sandy Paterson -----Original Message----- From: [mailto:] On Behalf Of Sent: 05 October 2008 01:59 To: Subject: Re: [DNA-R1B1C7] Questions ??? In a message dated 10/4/2008 4:09:33 A.M. Central Daylight Time, writes: So evidence of either would tend to support the belief that 1. The Anradans existed ; and 2. Certain Argyllshire clans were descended from them. Leaving the question of DNA aside for the moment, I don't have much doubt the Anradans existed. But we still have the question of two completely different Anradan pedigrees in the same manuscript (Gaelic MS. 1467). One says Anradan was a son of Aodh Athlaman in the O'Neill line; the other says the same Anradan was a son of Gilleibeirt king of the western Sudreys, a line that ultimately ties into the [fake] Somerled pedigree from Colla Uais. I don't believe it can be argued that there just happened to be two Anradans in Scotland, both with the names Ferchar m. Dunsleive m.Buirc m. Anradan. When I see two conflicting pedigrees I immediately suspect some kind of fabrication. Both can't be true. It's possible neither of them are true. When Skene wrote his first book on the highland clans he did not recognize the Lamont pedigree for what it was. He labeled it "Clan Ladus" and misidentified it completely. If you want to step back a bit in time to examine the first appearance of the Anradan line in any known surviving manuscript you must start with the Books of Lecan and Ballymote. Here we find pedigrees for the MacSweeneys only - none of the other "Anradan kindred" are included. Both versions contain the same descent - Suibhne m. Aedh Alainn [called Buirch] m. Anrathan m. Aodh Athlaman. Most later pedigrees of the MacSweeneys including O Clery add another name to the original pedigree: Dunsleive m. Aedh Alainn. This is suspicious, to say the least. Why does a pedigree for MacSweeney suddenly appear in the Books of Lecan and Ballymore c. 1400 A.D. Most Irish historians have a ready answer for that. The MacSweeneys were given a fabricated pedigree linked to the Ui Neill among whom they settled in Donegal as a Scottish gallowglass sept from Scotland. At the same time a pedigree of the McDonalds also appears for the first time in Irish MS. Why? Probably because they too had a branch of gallowglass Scots who settled in Tyrone under the O'Neills. Prior to this gallowglass era in Ireland the Irish had taken no notice of the Scots in their pedigree manuscripts except for the line of the Dal Riata kings of Scotland. There are plenty of fabricated pedigrees in Irish MS. from this period. It was almost a cottage industry in Ireland at the time. The list includes the pedigree of the McDonalds from Colla Uais; the pedigree of the McCabes from Sitrig silkenbeard of the Danes of Dublin; the McCoughlins of Ireland; the McMahons of Fermanagh; I'm sure others could add more. As far as DNA goes we can't pinpoint the exact date of a suspected NPE through TMRCA calculations. You get a different answer every time depending on which method you use. For all I know the suspected NPE in the O'Neill line could have occurred anytime between about 980 AD. and 1160 AD., when Aedh 'the lazy youth" Ua Neill burst on the scene. That's the period when the O'Neill pedigree is unverifiable in any Irish source records. To me it doesn't really matter because I don't believe the Anradan pedigree is true in the first place. I know I'll never convince you that the Anradan pedigree is nothing but a medieval forgery but that's what I believe. So far I've been able to find about 12 Sweeney DNA samples from Ysearch and Sorenson. I'm assuming these are all Irish MacSweeneys but I do not know that for sure. There could be more out there but I haven't looked recently. 6 of these samples are R1b1c7; six are not R1b1c7. Two of the R1b1c7 samples were given by close relatives. Since we do find some R1b1c7 among the Sweeneys does that verify the Anradan pedigree? Flip a coin. Another major Anradan kindred family were the Maclachlans of Argyllshire. In our McLaughlin DNA project we have a lot of R1b1c7 McLaughlins, some of whom say their ancestors came from Scotland (four or five of 35). We also have a number of non R1b1c7 McLaughlins who also say their ancestors came from Scotland. If there's one conclusion we've drawn from our McLaughlin project it's that there were several different origins for the surname Maclachlan in Scotland. But we cannot yet state with certainty what the DNA of the Argyllshire Maclachlans is. Our one sample that says his ancestor came from Argyllshire is not R1b1c7 but matches one of the Scot modals instead. Another in the Ardnamurchan peninsula just north of Argyllshire is not R1b1c7 either. The only McEwan sample I've seen so far is for John McEwan, who knows his ancestors came from Argyllshire. His DNA is not R1b1c7. Presumably his surname should tie into the MacEwans of Otter, one of the Anradan kindred. The Lamonts, as I've been informed by yourself and others, have at least one R1b1c7 candidate. I've also found two R1a Lamonts. Since their pedigree in the Gaelic MS. ties into the line of the McDonalds (the chieftains of which are R1a) that might make some sense. I reached my conclusions about the historicity of the Anradan kindred long before the DNA era. if DNA proves me wrong eventually I'll bow to the inevitable and re-write my web pages. I would encourage anyone to keep working on the subject. I do not think we have enough solid data yet to either confirm or reject the Anradan pedigree based on DNA. I've said that consistently to anyone who asked for the last few years. And I get asked that a lot since my web site is the only one on the internet with a section devoted to the Anradan kindred. _http://members.aol.com/lochlan/anradan.htm_ (http://members.aol.com/lochlan/anradan.htm) You're right about the timing of the possible O'Neill NPE, by the way. Even if the royal line of the O'Neills did match the main non R1b1c7 O'Neills there is still a window in which an O'Neill born circa 1000 AD. could be R1b1c7, based on comparing DNA with the MacLochlainn line. But that window works both ways. They could also be non R1b1c7. I never intended to get off on this Anradan tangent. I'm much more interested in the O'Neills themselves. The main group of non R1b1c7 O'Neills are tightly clustered; both Ed O'Neill and I believe they clearly are descended from one common ancestor. In contrast the smaller group (8) of R1b1c7 O'Neills are much more diverse and if it weren't for the fact that all are R1b1c7 I'd be hard pressed to even say they had a common ancestor. Certainly this common ancestor would have lived long before the common ancestor of the royal O'Neills.The third smallest group of O'Neills are also non R1b1c7 and seem to be random matches to the surname. John **************New MapQuest Local shows what's happening at your destination. 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