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From:
Subject: Re: [DNA-R1B1C7] Questions ???
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2008 20:59:14 EDT


In a message dated 10/4/2008 4:09:33 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
writes:

So evidence of either would tend to support the belief that

1. The Anradans existed ; and
2. Certain Argyllshire clans were descended from them.



Leaving the question of DNA aside for the moment, I don't have much doubt
the Anradans existed. But we still have the question of two completely
different Anradan pedigrees in the same manuscript (Gaelic MS. 1467). One says
Anradan was a son of Aodh Athlaman in the O'Neill line; the other says the same
Anradan was a son of Gilleibeirt king of the western Sudreys, a line that
ultimately ties into the [fake] Somerled pedigree from Colla Uais.

I don't believe it can be argued that there just happened to be two Anradans
in Scotland, both with the names Ferchar m. Dunsleive m.Buirc m. Anradan.
When I see two conflicting pedigrees I immediately suspect some kind of
fabrication. Both can't be true. It's possible neither of them are true.

When Skene wrote his first book on the highland clans he did not recognize
the Lamont pedigree for what it was. He labeled it "Clan Ladus" and
misidentified it completely.

If you want to step back a bit in time to examine the first appearance of
the Anradan line in any known surviving manuscript you must start with the
Books of Lecan and Ballymote. Here we find pedigrees for the MacSweeneys only -
none of the other "Anradan kindred" are included. Both versions contain the
same descent - Suibhne m. Aedh Alainn [called Buirch] m. Anrathan m. Aodh
Athlaman. Most later pedigrees of the MacSweeneys including O Clery add another
name to the original pedigree: Dunsleive m. Aedh Alainn. This is
suspicious, to say the least.

Why does a pedigree for MacSweeney suddenly appear in the Books of Lecan and
Ballymore c. 1400 A.D. Most Irish historians have a ready answer for that.
The MacSweeneys were given a fabricated pedigree linked to the Ui Neill
among whom they settled in Donegal as a Scottish gallowglass sept from Scotland.
At the same time a pedigree of the McDonalds also appears for the first time
in Irish MS. Why? Probably because they too had a branch of gallowglass
Scots who settled in Tyrone under the O'Neills. Prior to this gallowglass era
in Ireland the Irish had taken no notice of the Scots in their pedigree
manuscripts except for the line of the Dal Riata kings of Scotland.

There are plenty of fabricated pedigrees in Irish MS. from this period. It
was almost a cottage industry in Ireland at the time. The list includes the
pedigree of the McDonalds from Colla Uais; the pedigree of the McCabes from
Sitrig silkenbeard of the Danes of Dublin; the McCoughlins of Ireland; the
McMahons of Fermanagh; I'm sure others could add more.

As far as DNA goes we can't pinpoint the exact date of a suspected NPE
through TMRCA calculations. You get a different answer every time depending on
which method you use. For all I know the suspected NPE in the O'Neill line
could have occurred anytime between about 980 AD. and 1160 AD., when Aedh 'the
lazy youth" Ua Neill burst on the scene. That's the period when the O'Neill
pedigree is unverifiable in any Irish source records. To me it doesn't really
matter because I don't believe the Anradan pedigree is true in the first
place.


I know I'll never convince you that the Anradan pedigree is nothing but a
medieval forgery but that's what I believe.

So far I've been able to find about 12 Sweeney DNA samples from Ysearch and
Sorenson. I'm assuming these are all Irish MacSweeneys but I do not know
that for sure. There could be more out there but I haven't looked recently.

6 of these samples are R1b1c7; six are not R1b1c7. Two of the R1b1c7
samples were given by close relatives. Since we do find some R1b1c7 among the
Sweeneys does that verify the Anradan pedigree? Flip a coin.

Another major Anradan kindred family were the Maclachlans of Argyllshire.
In our McLaughlin DNA project we have a lot of R1b1c7 McLaughlins, some of
whom say their ancestors came from Scotland (four or five of 35). We also have
a number of non R1b1c7 McLaughlins who also say their ancestors came from
Scotland. If there's one conclusion we've drawn from our McLaughlin project
it's that there were several different origins for the surname Maclachlan in
Scotland. But we cannot yet state with certainty what the DNA of the
Argyllshire Maclachlans is. Our one sample that says his ancestor came from
Argyllshire is not R1b1c7 but matches one of the Scot modals instead. Another in the
Ardnamurchan peninsula just north of Argyllshire is not R1b1c7 either.

The only McEwan sample I've seen so far is for John McEwan, who knows his
ancestors came from Argyllshire. His DNA is not R1b1c7. Presumably his
surname should tie into the MacEwans of Otter, one of the Anradan kindred.

The Lamonts, as I've been informed by yourself and others, have at least one
R1b1c7 candidate. I've also found two R1a Lamonts. Since their pedigree in
the Gaelic MS. ties into the line of the McDonalds (the chieftains of which
are R1a) that might make some sense.

I reached my conclusions about the historicity of the Anradan kindred long
before the DNA era. if DNA proves me wrong eventually I'll bow to the
inevitable and re-write my web pages. I would encourage anyone to keep working on
the subject. I do not think we have enough solid data yet to either confirm
or reject the Anradan pedigree based on DNA. I've said that consistently to
anyone who asked for the last few years. And I get asked that a lot since my
web site is the only one on the internet with a section devoted to the
Anradan kindred.

_http://members.aol.com/lochlan/anradan.htm_
(http://members.aol.com/lochlan/anradan.htm)

You're right about the timing of the possible O'Neill NPE, by the way. Even
if the royal line of the O'Neills did match the main non R1b1c7 O'Neills
there is still a window in which an O'Neill born circa 1000 AD. could be R1b1c7,
based on comparing DNA with the MacLochlainn line. But that window works
both ways. They could also be non R1b1c7.

I never intended to get off on this Anradan tangent. I'm much more
interested in the O'Neills themselves. The main group of non R1b1c7 O'Neills are
tightly clustered; both Ed O'Neill and I believe they clearly are descended from
one common ancestor. In contrast the smaller group (8) of R1b1c7 O'Neills
are much more diverse and if it weren't for the fact that all are R1b1c7 I'd
be hard pressed to even say they had a common ancestor. Certainly this
common ancestor would have lived long before the common ancestor of the royal
O'Neills.The third smallest group of O'Neills are also non R1b1c7 and seem to be
random matches to the surname.


John













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