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Archiver > DNA-R1B1C7 > 2008-10 > 1223138792


From:
Subject: Re: [DNA-R1B1C7] Questions ???
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2008 12:46:32 EDT


WHAT IS THE PROBLEM HERE, I THINK THERE MUST HAVE BEEN A LOT OF HANKY PANKY
GOING ON IN HIS DNA? OR IT'S SO MESSED UP NO ONE KNOW'S WHO IS WHAT?


In a message dated 10/4/2008 4:09:33 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
writes:

Hi John

>
If true it would place ancestor of the main group of non R1b1c7 O'Neill DNA
at about the time of
Domhnall 'of Armagh', ancestor of both MacLochlainn and O'Neill (d. 980
AD).
>

I have no reason to question the Trinity estimate but I think you are
placing too literal an interpretation on the figure they came up with. What
it really means is that the hypothesised NPE (or indeed male introgression)
probably took place during a time span that straddles the year 900AD, not
that it took place in 900AD.

If it took place before the time the Anradans are hypothesised to have been
spawned, one would expect to see evidence of R1b1c7 in the Adradan ancestors
(if they indeed exist). If it took place after the Anradan spawning, one
would expect to
find evidence of what I think you and Ed O'Neill have dubbed the ON
grouping.

So evidence of either would tend to support the belief that

1. The Anradans existed ; and
2. Certain Argyllshire clans were descended from them.

The question really is what constitutes satisfactory evidence?

I note that you often use the expression "tested R1b1c7". Perhaps you would
clarify what you mean by that in relation to a bunch of haplotypes?


Sandy Paterson




-----Original Message-----
From:
[mailto:] On Behalf Of
Sent: 03 October 2008 23:58
To:
Subject: Re: [DNA-R1B1C7] Questions ???

That's based completely on the Trinity TMRCA dating - Ed O'Neill came up
with that figure after discussions with the Trinity team. I don't think it
was
included in any of their articles. Whether that's believable probably
depends on how much faith you put in such calculations. If true it would
place
ancestor of the main group of non R1b1c7 O'Neill DNA at about the time of
Domhnall 'of Armagh', ancestor of both MacLochlainn and O'Neill (d. 980
AD). The
trouble is we have two different pedigrees for the McLaughlins (R1b1c7).
One
has them splitting off the main line of the Kings of Aileach from a son of
Aedh Finleith, the Irish High king who d. 876 AD. His son Domhnall dabhail
d.
915. In a different version of the pedigree the Mclaughlins share Domhnall
'
of Armagh' as a common ancestor with the O'Neills. So R1b1c7 may only be
traceable in this line through Aedh Finleith. Prior to that all of the
major
septs said to descend from this line are testing mostly R1b1c7 with the
normal
number of non matching samples.

In looking at historical records there isn't anything that looks out of
place in the regnal succession of the line that would later become the
O'Neills. There are just some problems with the O'Neill pedigree as raised
by O
Ceallaigh from 1000 AD. to about 1160 AD. when it again becomes traceable in
the
annals. There are problems with the MacLochlainn pedigree in the same
period.

The Anradan pedigree falls right into the middle of these problem areas.


John




In a message dated 10/3/2008 10:53:46 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
writes:

In your joint paper with Ed O'Neill, you conclude that the most likely
period for the hypothesised NPE was between 900 and the 1500s. This is
point
3 just above table 7.

Or have I misunderstood?

Sandy Paterson





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