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Archiver > DNA-R1B1C7 > 2008-10 > 1223084565


From: Bernard Morgan <>
Subject: Re: [DNA-R1B1C7] MRCA of R1b1b2e as early as 1388 CE??
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2008 01:42:45 +0000


> Prior to 400 AD. almost nothing is known for sure in Irish history. Nial > 'of the Nine Hostages' falls right into the cusp of history and pre-history. > He's mentioned prominently in the annals but these weren't contemporary > eyewitness accounts at that date and the entries may represent mythology as much as > history. Is there a question to historical fact for Niall of the Hostages? My understanding is that Niall makes his first appearance in Tirechan's latin 'Life of St Patrick' circa 670 AD. (Source 'Early Medieval Ireland 400-1200 by Daibhi O Croinin") This about two hundred and fifty years after his reported death. And St Adamnan's Life of St Columba (also a later 7th century text) has Colmcille as a descendant of Fergus mac Conall Gulban, which seems confirms the early Ui Neill pedigree? (Source 'The Illustrated Life of Columba" by John Marsden) > > The second school of thought (F.J. Byrnes) says the Connachta originated in > Connachta and from there spread into the NW (Donegal, Tyrone) and the > midlands of Ireland. Byrnes, unlike O'Rahilly, chose not to speculate on when or > how the Connachta first came to Ireland. He basically ignores pre-history and > concentrates on the historical period. I was disappointed in reading the Irish myths especially the Ulster Cycle. For the ancestor Neill of Nine Hostages (ours) do not appear. Except a briefly appearance in Munster (in the "Intoxication of the Ulstermen") here the ancestor figure 'Crimthann Nia Nair' is seen in Munster; along with Aillil the king of Connacht of myth. Cu Chulain promptly dispatch 'Crimthann Nia Nair' our mythical ancestor in two lines... Medb does not even lead the Connachta against the Ulaid; for one thing Conn hadn't lived yet! Hence no Connachta. Bottom line Connachta is a recent creation, Conn him self is recorded by the Irish has have live in the early second century. So by the third century there could have a been of Connachta of a few hundred? The myths have Aillil's family ruling from Cruchan, which is the Tara of Connacht. The uncorrupted versions of the myths use the older name for the province of "Coiced Ol nEchmacht"; i.e., instead of Connacht. There as Conn's descendants in the later Fenain cycles (Cormac mac Art and Lugaid mac Conn) appear as kings of Tara. It is suggested that Nagnatae of Ptolemy map is generally agreed to be a corruption of nEchmacht.> > The question all of us are wondering is how does the R1b1c7 DNA in Scotland > fit into this picture? I don't really have any answers for that but I have > to add Scotland isn't the only other place R1b1c7 is found. I've also seen it > in a fair amount of English surnames and there are at least a few matches to > be found in France and Germany. Some even in more remote locations like > Denmark and Iceland. I think the only one of these continental matches with an > M222+ SNP test is the Lominac sample from Germany. Some of the other samples > are close but so off modal I can't even be sure they are R1b1c7.> Who are the R1b1c7 of Scotland? Fergus's descendants? Bernard.

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