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Subject: Re: [DNA-R1B1C7] MRCA of R1b1b2e as early as 1388 CE??
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2008 20:13:24 EDT
In a message dated 10/3/2008 4:24:00 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
writes:
I once believed that the NW Irish/Lowland Scot cluster represented the
survivors of the first post-glacial-maximum inhabitants of what we now call
Ireland. At a time when we thought that the majority of the most refined
Haplogroup R subclades had been in Europe for more than 20,000 years, that
was not an impossible notion. But now I tend to look at the world with a
more collapsed time frame. Do I think the common ancestor could have lived
barely 600 years ago, as the subject line asks? No. Am I open to the
possibility that the MRCA could have lived between 500 and 1000 CE? Yes.
That's an interesting analysis, David. Maybe we should ask ourselves what
that might mean in terms of history as we know it.
In Ireland R1b1c7 is mostly equated with the Connachta and Ui Neill (NW
Irish). I don't know if other tribes fall under this umbrella or not. But I do
know most of the Connachta and Ui Neill test R1b1c7 except for the one
exception we've been discussing in a different thread (O'Neills).
Prior to 400 AD. almost nothing is known for sure in Irish history. Nial
'of the Nine Hostages' falls right into the cusp of history and pre-history.
He's mentioned prominently in the annals but these weren't contemporary
eyewitness accounts at that date and the entries may represent mythology as much as
history.
There are two schools of thought on the origin of the Ui Neill and
Connachta. One (O'Rahilly) claims the Connachta (descendants of Conn 'of the Hundred
Battles') came to Ireland from Gaul, landed near Dublin, then worked inland
setting up a kingdom in what is now Meath. From that base in the midlands of
Ireland they later spread into Connacht and NW Ireland (mainly Donegal and
Tyrone). The movement from the midlands into the northwest of Ireland is
generally thought to have taken place sometime during or shortly after the time of
Nial himself, when his three sons, Conal gulban, Eoghan and Enna are said to
have established kingdoms in Donegal and Tyrone.
The UI Neill did not exist as a separate tribe before the sons of Nial. The
original tribal designation was Connachta.
The second school of thought (F.J. Byrnes) says the Connachta originated in
Connachta and from there spread into the NW (Donegal, Tyrone) and the
midlands of Ireland. Byrnes, unlike O'Rahilly, chose not to speculate on when or
how the Connachta first came to Ireland. He basically ignores pre-history and
concentrates on the historical period.
O'Rahilly's theory is the Connachta (whom he mostly referred to as northern
goidels) were latecomers to Ireland, arriving sometime around 50 BC. or a
century earlier. At least part of O'Rahilly's theory seems to be based on the
evidence of Ptolemy's map of Ireland which seems to show no trace of a tribe
named Connachta or anything similar. Ptolemy's map is dated to c. 150 AD. but
O'Rahilly believed it was based on much older sources, possibly dating from
300 BC. Other scholars disagree.
In the NW of Ireland in the areas now known as Donegal and Londonderry and
parts of Tyrone we find a tribe called the Venicinii. O'Rahilly never
mentioned this tribe in his analysis and to the best of my knowledge no other Irish
historian has either. No one knows who or what they were. In Scotland (the
eastern lowlands) there was a tribe in Ptolemy's map with a similar name -
Venicones. No one knows much of anything about them either. There has been
some speculation mainly in mail lists among amateurs that the two tribe names
were one and the same. But I don't think any academic historian accepts a
connection between the two.
The question all of us are wondering is how does the R1b1c7 DNA in Scotland
fit into this picture? I don't really have any answers for that but I have
to add Scotland isn't the only other place R1b1c7 is found. I've also seen it
in a fair amount of English surnames and there are at least a few matches to
be found in France and Germany. Some even in more remote locations like
Denmark and Iceland. I think the only one of these continental matches with an
M222+ SNP test is the Lominac sample from Germany. Some of the other samples
are close but so off modal I can't even be sure they are R1b1c7.
It's often noted that NW Ireland (and especially the northern coasts of
Donegal and L'Derry) are very close to the western isles of Scotland and it would
be no major task at all to sail across. That's very true. You can see
parts of Scotland with the naked eye from Donegal. But prior to 400 A.D. the new
tribe the Ui Neill were not even in NW Ireland if the Irish historians are
correct. They were either in the midlands (O'Rahilly) or essentially
landbound in the interior of Connacht (Roscommon). That's not really a good argument
against R1b1c7 coming to Scotland prior to 400 A.D but it does remove some
of the proximity factor.
What was happening in Scotland at the same time is almost a complete blank.
The histories just talk about the lowland Scots as northern Britons and the
Scots of the Dal Riata were supposed to have crossed over from NE Ireland to
Argyllshire around 500 AD. If there is one thing I'd like to point out it's
probably that R1b1c7 in Ireland was not in NE Ireland at the time and
probably played no role in the supposed settlement of Dal Riatic Scotland. The
tribes that might have come to Scotland from Antrim were called Ulaidh, Dal
Fiatach or Dal Riata, mortal enemies of the Connachta of the midlands of Ireland
(or Connacht) who were encroaching on their territory in the NE (Antrim, Down,
L'Derry). That's what the saga the Tain Bo Culaigne is all about (Cattle
raid of Cooley) - warfare between the Connachta and the Ulaidh of the north.
There may be some dots here that can be connected but I can't do it.
David's dates give a range from 0 AD.. to 500 AD.
John
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