DNA-R1B1C7-L Archives

Archiver > DNA-R1B1C7 > 2008-10 > 1223037168


From: "Debra Dunbar Nowell" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA-R1B1C7] Questions ???
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2008 08:32:48 -0400


Hi John,

One question concerning your post below: What is the haplogroup for the
"main group of
O'Neills who are not R1b1c7? If not known, will they get SNP tested to find
out their exact haplogroup?

Thank you, Debra


I was the co-author of that paper along with Ed O'Neill. We drew no
conclusions about the main group of O'Neills who were not R1b1c7. We noted
that
several McShane DNA samples matched the main group of O'Neills and also
noted no
current O'Neill chieftains had been tested. Our theory was that the main
group of O'Neills who are not R1b17 represent the line of the O'Neill
chieftains, based mostly on the McShane connections. As far as Ed and I
are concerned
the O'Neills are very much still a mystery.

Now as to this continuing Anradan drama.

The pedigree of the MacSweeneys first popped up circa 1400 A.D. in the
Books
of Ballymote and Lecan. And it connected them to Aodh Athlaman, son of Fla
ithbertach an trostain. At the same time the line of the royal O'Neills
also
made it's first appearance in the same manuscripts just preceding the
MacSweeney pedigree. They too are said to descend from Aodh Athlaman from
his son,
Domhnall an t-ogdam Ua Neill. The MacSweeneys are said to descend from
another son, Anradan.

At this date the MacSweeneys are the only family connected to Aodh
Athlaman.
The Anradan connection with the other kindred families was mostly unknown
in Scotland until William Skene in the early 1800s unearthed his famous
Gaelic
MS. 1467 which did not contain a MacSweeney pedigree but did contain
pedigrees also linking the Maclachlans, Lamonts, and McEwans of Otter to
Anradan.
The manuscript is dated to about 1467 AD. by Skene, based on names in the
pedigrees. But things aren't that simple. The Lamont pedigree is actually
different from the MacSweeney pedigree. It connects Anradan to a ic
Gilleabeirt
king of the western Sudreys. It has to be the same Anradan because the
string
of names is identical to that in later MacSweeney pedigrees - Dunsleibe ic
Buirc ic Anradan.

That should give anyone pause for thought.

If the pedigrees are true and Ed O'Neill and I are right that the royal
line
of the O'Neills in both branches descend from the non R1b1c7 O'Neills then
the Anradan enthusiasts should be looking for DNA that matches the non
R1b1c7
O'Neills.

The DNA as found in the Trinity study is as follows:

13-24-14-11-12-15-12-12-11-13-13-30

Ed O'Neill, the co-author of the O'Neill article, is close to this:

13-24-14-11-11-15-12-12-11-13-13-30

Two McShane samples are identical:

36TNM McShane
TNG73 McShane

Patrick Guinness reviewed the article prior to publication. He had a
different theory, that the R1b1c7 O'Neills were the "royal" line of
chieftains and
the non matching main group of O'Neills were just outsiders taken into the
clan or clan followers, probably from the Airgialla. Neither Ed nor I
agreed
with this theory because the DNA of the main group of non R1b1c7 O'Neills
is
tightly clustered and shows strong evidence of a single founder. And Ed
reported that the Trinity team itself dated the TMRCA to about 900 A.D. or
around
the time of Domhnall 'of Armagh' Ua Neill, the ancestor of the O'Neills who
d. 980 A.D. The only other theory to surface involves the Kelly blacksmith
bastard O'Neill DNA from the 1500s. Ed and I both thought this was
unlikely,
given the TMRCA dating of Trinity to ca. 900 AD.

Everyone is right about one thing. The O'Neills should test R1b1c7. As
we mentioned in the O'Neill article the closest kin to the O'Neills in
Ireland
were the McLaughlins of Donegal. Thanks to some definite locations based
on
genealogy we've been able to figure out their DNA signature - it's R1b1c7
with a few distinctive markers that set them apart from mainstream R1b1c7.
The
McLaughlins and O'Neills split off the main royal line of the northern Ui
Neill in either c. 900 AD. or a century later, depending on which pedigree
you
want to believe. The next closest major sept to the O'Neills were the O
Cathains of Derry Co. They too are R1b1c7 and split off the same line
about 700
AD. . So are a host of different clans said to descend from Nial including
the Cenel Conaill (O'Donnells, O'Gallaghers, O'Boyles, Dohertys, etc.).

If this mystery has been solved it's news to me.


John D. McLaughlin




--
Debra Dunbar Nowell – Administrator - Dunbar Surname YDNA Project

http://www.dunbardna.org/


This thread: