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Archiver > DNA-R1B1C7 > 2008-10 > 1222909218


From: Bernard Morgan <>
Subject: Re: [DNA-R1B1C7] Questions ???
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 01:00:18 +0000


John,

What do the Scottish families, who claim descent from O'Neills, (the Anradan kindred) show in this regard ?
> From: > Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 19:38:05 -0400> To: > Subject: Re: [DNA-R1B1C7] Questions ???> > In a message dated 10/1/2008 7:59:22 A.M. Central Daylight Time, > writes:> In any case is there any theory as to whether the NPE occurs in both > branches of the O'Neills or one in particular?> > That's a good question but no one has an answer. It might help if some of > the O'Neill chieftains were tested - but so far none want to participate. One > potential clue is there are some McShanes who match the Trinity O'Neill main > group perfectly - and these are often said to be branch of the O'Neills. > But there are conflicting reports on the descent of the McShanes. > > 36TNM McShane> TNG73 McShane> > The O'Neills themselves descend from Aodh 'the lazy youth" Ua Neill, slain > in 1177 by two MacLochlainns, then Kings of Aileach. According to the > pedigrees this Aodh had two sons, Neill Ruadh and Aodh dubh, from whom descend the > branches of O'Neill of Tyrone and Clannaboy. O'Neill of the Fews is just an > offshoot of the Tyrone branch. O Ceallaigh's article mainly discussed the > ancestors of Aodh 'the lazy youth", focusing on how murky the line appeared to > be. From the time of his sons and later the line is well traced in the > annals. Realistically though who can say from pedigrees when an NPE might have > occurred?> > There is one odd statement in O Ceallaigh's discussion of the O'Neill > pedigree. The Lebor Eoghanach is the history of the O'Neills still quoted today > in some form or other by all O'Neill historians. It's a late document > written sometime in the 17th century, a copy of which is appended to the Lebor > Clanna Aodh Buidhe.. According to the Lebor Eoghanach and other much earlier > pedigrees dating from the Books of Lecan and Ballymote, the O'Neills and Aodh > 'the lazy youth' descend from Aodh Athlaman, the son of Flaithbertach an > trostain, both Kings of Aileach, who died in 1033 and 1036 respectively.> > But O Ceallaigh quotes directly from the Lebor Eoghanach:> > " Of the four persons carrying the family back to Flaithbheartach's son, > Aedh Allan, not one, as far as I can see, is mentioned in the annals. Not even > their obits are recorded. This fact in itself would arouse misgivings. For six > generations in sequence the family depends upon a single individual to > maintain the succession; no brothers or uncles are mentioned, and L.E. expressly > states that Aodh was the last of his race. "> > Aodh Athlaman (Aedh Allan) was the last of his race? What does that mean > and why does that statement appear in the Lebor Eoghanach?> > Aodh Athlaman, the reputed ancestor of the O'Neills, may indeed have been > the last of his race. Under the heading Clan Neill in Rawlinson B.502, > written about 1120 A.D., there is a pedigree for Flaithbertach an trostain which > does not mention his son Aodh Athlaman at all. The G2 manuscript at the > National Library in Ireland (c. 1345) contains a slightly different pedigree for > Aodh 'the lazy youth' which is obviously corrupt but may show a different line > of descent.> > Fudged and/or corrupted or fabricated pedigrees are not proof of an NPE. > But it my opinion they do cast some doubt on the traditional descent of the > O'Neills of Ulster which is all the more interesting since we see a break in > DNA as well..> > > John> > > > > > > > > **************Looking for simple solutions to your real-life financial > challenges? Check out WalletPop for the latest news and information, tips and > calculators. (http://www.walletpop.com/?NCID=emlcntuswall00000001)>; > -------------------------------> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
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