DNA-R1B1C7-L Archives

Archiver > DNA-R1B1C7 > 2008-10 > 1222904285


From:
Subject: Re: [DNA-R1B1C7] Questions ???
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 19:38:05 EDT


In a message dated 10/1/2008 7:59:22 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
writes:
In any case is there any theory as to whether the NPE occurs in both
branches of the O'Neills or one in particular?

That's a good question but no one has an answer. It might help if some of
the O'Neill chieftains were tested - but so far none want to participate. One
potential clue is there are some McShanes who match the Trinity O'Neill main
group perfectly - and these are often said to be branch of the O'Neills.
But there are conflicting reports on the descent of the McShanes.

36TNM McShane
TNG73 McShane

The O'Neills themselves descend from Aodh 'the lazy youth" Ua Neill, slain
in 1177 by two MacLochlainns, then Kings of Aileach. According to the
pedigrees this Aodh had two sons, Neill Ruadh and Aodh dubh, from whom descend the
branches of O'Neill of Tyrone and Clannaboy. O'Neill of the Fews is just an
offshoot of the Tyrone branch. O Ceallaigh's article mainly discussed the
ancestors of Aodh 'the lazy youth", focusing on how murky the line appeared to
be. From the time of his sons and later the line is well traced in the
annals. Realistically though who can say from pedigrees when an NPE might have
occurred?

There is one odd statement in O Ceallaigh's discussion of the O'Neill
pedigree. The Lebor Eoghanach is the history of the O'Neills still quoted today
in some form or other by all O'Neill historians. It's a late document
written sometime in the 17th century, a copy of which is appended to the Lebor
Clanna Aodh Buidhe.. According to the Lebor Eoghanach and other much earlier
pedigrees dating from the Books of Lecan and Ballymote, the O'Neills and Aodh
'the lazy youth' descend from Aodh Athlaman, the son of Flaithbertach an
trostain, both Kings of Aileach, who died in 1033 and 1036 respectively.

But O Ceallaigh quotes directly from the Lebor Eoghanach:

" Of the four persons carrying the family back to Flaithbheartach's son,
Aedh Allan, not one, as far as I can see, is mentioned in the annals. Not even
their obits are recorded. This fact in itself would arouse misgivings. For six
generations in sequence the family depends upon a single individual to
maintain the succession; no brothers or uncles are mentioned, and L.E. expressly
states that Aodh was the last of his race. "

Aodh Athlaman (Aedh Allan) was the last of his race? What does that mean
and why does that statement appear in the Lebor Eoghanach?

Aodh Athlaman, the reputed ancestor of the O'Neills, may indeed have been
the last of his race. Under the heading Clan Neill in Rawlinson B.502,
written about 1120 A.D., there is a pedigree for Flaithbertach an trostain which
does not mention his son Aodh Athlaman at all. The G2 manuscript at the
National Library in Ireland (c. 1345) contains a slightly different pedigree for
Aodh 'the lazy youth' which is obviously corrupt but may show a different line
of descent.

Fudged and/or corrupted or fabricated pedigrees are not proof of an NPE.
But it my opinion they do cast some doubt on the traditional descent of the
O'Neills of Ulster which is all the more interesting since we see a break in
DNA as well..


John








**************Looking for simple solutions to your real-life financial
challenges? Check out WalletPop for the latest news and information, tips and
calculators. (http://www.walletpop.com/?NCID=emlcntuswall00000001)

This thread: