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From:
Subject: Re: [DNA-R1B1C7] Questions ???
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 14:28:02 +0000


Hi Debra, the problem with the O'Neill lineage is frequently discussed in forums like the genealogy-DNA one. There are a number of very knowledgeable people there both in regards to genetics and genealogy. Unfortunately as there was no way to be sure of paternity before DNA testing, there are plenty of incidents of strange anomalies. The O'Neill one is a NPE -- Non Paternity Event. It is believed, though these opinions change very frequently, the event occurred in the 1500s. There well may be multiples. The descent of Hugh O'Neill is not exactly pristine. Many believe he is the grandson of a blacksmith. His grandmother was married to this man but claimed that the father of her son was O'Neill and managed to convince others. Her ability to win a political argument has no bearing on the correctness of her suppositions or the origin of the Y chromosome of her son. There is no way she could have actually known who the father was (no access to a DNA test), assuming she was sle!
eping w
ith more than one man. Apparently she was.

Some info here on Matthew http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugh_O%27Neill,_2nd_Earl_of_Tyrone .

See the whole story here: http://www.freewebs.com/mileshispaniae/thegreathughoneill.htm

So the paternity of the "main" O'Neill line was certainly under suspicion long before Y DNA testing. This didn't matter in Irish law (I have read, see first link above), as once a son was accepted as the son, he was the son, legally. I believe the same is true in American law, though whether this has been contested due to the advent of DNA testing, I don't know. Maybe someone else does. In any case, in lieu of such tests, legal paternity was what mattered, not the Y chromosome.

Aside from this clear opportunity to 'lose' the "real" O'Neill Y chromo, plenty of opportunity existed before this event due to the nature of people (they cheat on their partners a lot) and Irish law (illegitimacy was not a bar to succession, unlike in the English legal system, encouraging many supposed sons to come forward who may or may not have actually been fathered by the legal father). No doubt by testing outlying branches a determination can be made of when this NPE occurred.

I have heard that there is not a lot of cooperation from the principles.

However it is certainly not true that there is no interest in this problem. I am involved professionally in research of a colonial American family that has turned out to be Dunseverick O'Cathan -- and thus R1b1c7 (or whatever they are now). I know a number of very qualified people are working with the geneticists to sort out these things. These people, like the geneticists in Dublin, are too busy to luck on email lists educating the rest of us. A few do lurk on the genealogy DNA list, making posts none of us can understand. It is probably the place where you find the most informed discussion. Check the archives. What information I have largely comes from private discussions. A lot happens that doesn't hit the forums. People who hope to publish their information do not chatter about half-proven theories, etc, before hand; else someone else could steal their idea and by publishing before them, 'win'. So smart people don't even tell the participants of their studies much of w!
hat the
y are working on, for fear the participants will either steal the idea or spill the beans on some forum.

The Ulster Heritage DNA project is one area where people who do work with the geneticists in Dublin are 'visible' as is much of their data. However due to the interest, they are very very busy there, and don't tend to have time to do ad hoc analysis of your DNA. Money helps to get their attention, as does having interesting DNA and/or a proven lineage. Having all three really helps a lot.

Linda Merle

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