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From:
Subject: Re: [DNA-R1B1C7] Questions??
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2008 19:33:36 EDT
In a message dated 9/27/2008 7:54:21 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
writes:
John, I think I agree with you. My knowledge about haplogroups is minute
compared with other scientists but if this were the true Ui Neill line
shouldn't this database be heavily populated with all variations of the
Neill surname? As it stands there are only 4 out of 435 in this haplogroup
project and very few show up at Ysearch when compared with the M222+
haplotype. If someone can help me understand my observation, I'd really
appreciate it.
Debra, to the best of my knowledge the personal name Neill is very common
among the septs of Ireland said to descend from Nial but only one family in
this related group actually used this as a surname: the O'Neills of Ireland.
In their case the surname probably came from a much later ancestor than Nial
himself - Nial glundubh, High King of Ireland, d. 919. His grandson, Domhnall
'of Armagh" is the first in the annals called Ua Neill, in this case meaning
a "grandson of Neill [glundubh[. In the Rawlinson genealogies there is a
division of the northern Ui Neill described as "clann Neill." This is also not
a reference to Nial of the Nine Hostages, but to Nial Caille, the High King
of Ireland who d. 944 A.D. There is a well known poem written shortly after
the Battle of Caim Eirge in 1241 A.D. extolling the merits of the victorious
O'Neill chieftain - it several times mentions the O'Neills as the "Neills and
the Aodhs," a reference to two common personal names running through the
line of the Kings of Aileach.
The O'Neill DNA situation is the most puzzling in Ireland. In the Trinity
database there are about 10 possible R1b1c7 Ulster O'Neills - but there is a
larger group of Ulster O'Neills (about 18) who are not R1b1c7. There are also
several smaller groups of O'Neills of Ulster who don't match either of these
but are so close to the AMH it's hard to say much on the basis of 12
markers. The O'Neill DNA (main group of 18) doesn't seem to match up with much of
anything from Ireland or Scotland. That's why you're not finding many R1b1c7
O'Neills though. Something odd happened in the O'Neill line and some of us
suspect some kind of major NPE.
What makes the O'Neill situation even more puzzling is the fact that every
other surname group said to descend from Nial of the Nine Hostages does test
R1b1c7. That includes the list of surnames mentioned by Trinity in their
article on Nial (O'Donnells, O'Dohertys, O'Gallaghers, McLaughlins, O'Cathains,
etc).
There has always been a tendency especially among older writers to confuse
the terms Ui Neill (the tribe name) and O'Neill (the surname). There are a
few annal entries from the Annals of Clonmacnoise that mentioned the O'Neals of
the north. That should be Ui Neills of the north. You'll see similar
errors like this in histories written in the 1600s to 1800s.
John
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