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From:
Subject: Re: [DNA-R1B1C7] Questions??
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 11:36:37 EDT


David, I do not think all R1b1c7 are Ui Neill or Connachta.

I have to admit up front that I'm still an O'Rahilly fanatic not quite ready
to buy into the prevaling wisdom that R1b1c7 originated in NW Ireland. As
everyone on this list probably knows O'Rahilly claimed the northern goidels
(by whom he meant the Connachta and their later offshoot, the Ui Neill) were
latecomers to Ireland arriving no earlier than about 50 BC. One of his major
arguments centered on Ptolemy's map of Ireland where he found no trace of the
Connachta in the tribe names of the time. Ptolemy's map is generally dated
to his own lifetime (c. 150 AD.) but O'Rahilly believed it was based on much
older material and really reflected an Ireland of ca. 300 BC). O'Rahilly's
arguments are all tangled up in a discussion of Q vs. P Celtic and for some
reason I don't fully understand he thought the only Q Celts in Ireland were the
Eoghanachta in the south and the Connachta (northern goidels in the
midlands). The Erainn are named in Ptolemy's map (they gave their name to Ireland -
Eire). In the NE the Dal Riata are there represented by the Robogdii. So are
the Ulaidh or Dal Fiatach. But there is no trace of a tribal name in the
map that can be connected with either the Eoghanacha or Connachta (the Ui Neill
as a tribe did not exist yet).

O'Rahilly also seemed to think (although he never said so directly) that
the Eoghanachta and Connachta were somehow related tribes that settled in
different parts of Ireland at about the same time. We now know this isn't true
from DNA.

Consider what it might mean if O'Rahilly is right and R1b1c7 did not
originate in Ireland and came there relatively late in history from somewhere else.
Dr. Faux at one time held open the possibility that R1b1c7 originated
somewhere in Gaul or Spain. If so then it must have migrated to the west and most
likely came to England and/or Scotland prior to arriving in Ireland. Unless
you prefer to believe that the R1b1c7 migrants would have skirted England
and Scotland to arrive directly in Ireland.

There are R1b1c7 matches in the public databases in several different parts
of continental Europe, including a few in France, a lot in Germany and even
some in the Scandinavian countries. But of course all anyone can think is
these must be "wild" geese or wandering Irish monks or some such thing.
Sometimes I think people have Ireland on the brain for some reason.

So what might it mean for your Ewings in Scotland if this DNA originated
in Gaul or Germany and then came first to (perhaps) northern England and the
lowlands of Scotland? And then later a shipload or two sailed across to
Ireland and in time became the Connachta and later the Ui Neill?

I have a very strange R1b1c7 DNA match in my spreadsheets. It's from the
Sorenson site but the surname sticks out like a sore thumb in the R1b1c7
universe: WADDLEWORTH from Cumberland, England. I can just imagine this
gentleman's ancestors looking down their English noses at the wild R1b1c7 Irish in
Ulster in blissful ignorance of the fact that they shared the same
Y-chromosome and somewhere in the past a common ancestor with the despised O'Neills.

It seems to be the mania in DNA circles to attempt to identify ancient
known tribes in Europe with DNA migrations. I couldn't begin to guess which
tribe in Gaul or Germany hosted the first M222+. Nor could I guess what tribe
they might have represented in Ptolemy's map of Scotland, although judging
from the location of most Scottish R1b1c7 it was surely in the lowlands and
along the northern border of England.

Maybe they were (gasp) some of the infamous Picts of Roman history.

John



In a message dated 9/26/2008 8:56:00 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
writes:

So, what is the harm of talking as if we R1b1c7s are the Ui Neill? None, I
suppose, if it stops there.




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