DNA-R1B1C7-L Archives

Archiver > DNA-R1B1C7 > 2008-09 > 1222359636


From: "Marie Kerr" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA-R1B1C7] Questions??
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 13:03:13 -0400
In-Reply-To: <e0d2d2870809250656w77f0d1f8u8ee058ee18ff2964@mail.gmail.com>


I have to respectfully disagree--to a point. For one, ethnicity (I suppose
you can debate even the meaning of that word) can be inferred when comparing
individuals who were raised within a specific geographic area. And if I
match someone at the 67th marker level, then a close relationship (within
several generations according to FamilyTree DNA) can be inferred. And if,
like my father, a 1st generation Irish-American from a very small town in
County Mayo, you know you have family still living there, you will probably
find second cousins (he has). And if, as often happens in small towns
everywhere, there is little in- or out-migration over time (as in my
father's town in County Mayo) with intermarriage (my grandparents had the
same last name), then there is a good probability that physical
characteristics will have been handed down. I have seen this in my own
family, where a newly-located second cousin once removed looks remarkably
like one of my first cousins.



In any case, David, your example of the sailor is but one potential DNA
merry mix. However, not all will fit this pattern, as even Bryan Sykes can
attest. So where is the harm in wanting to find a second cousin, in locating
that small town to find them, and then knowing you've been "Irish" (quotes
are for your benefit) for many generations? I think it's quite reasonable.
You may even find some telltale physical attributes (not visible via Y
testing, but there nonetheless), and the search is fun.



Your position, while arguably scientifically valid, is too strong, and not
the final word.







-----Original Message-----
From:
[mailto:] On Behalf Of David Ewing
Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2008 9:56 AM
To:
Subject: Re: [DNA-R1B1C7] Questions??



Yair:



The list is alive, but not very active.



R1b1b2e is the new name of R1b1c7, but the name of the list has not been

changed.



To see how R1b1b2e fits in with other haplotypes, have a look at the new

Y-Chromosome Phylogenetic Tree, which is available on the FTDNA website,

among other places. Here is a link to a pdf of the chart: *

http://tinyurl.com/4qjjs9*



I don't know what you mean by "anomalies in the family tree." It is what it

is.



Yes, this list is primarily focused on genetic genealogy.



Your question about "tribe" and "ethnic sub-division" has been repeatedly

and clearly answered many times. Y-DNA gives zero information about

ethnicity or tribe. For your convenience, I have pasted one of the answers

to your persistent question that I posted on this list last June:

"Close Y-DNA matches on large marker-panels do give evidence about genetic

and genealogic connections in the paternal line. That is what got most of us

on the list interested in this science. But even perfect 200-marker Y-DNA

matches do not give us information on ethnicity or appearance. Consider that

an R1b1c7 great great granddaddy of a large number of offspring by different

mothers could have been a sailor, who fathered sons in every port--one in

Norway, one in Spain, one in Africa, one in India, one in Cambodia, one in

China, one in Tonga... Now suppose each of these sons remained with their

mothers, married local women, and their descendants remained in each of

these places and interbred with their neighbors, [spoke the same language,

followed the same customs...]. Each of our R1b1c7 sailor's second great

grandsons will have received 100% of his Y-chromosome, and 6.25% (1/16) of

his other genetic material, on average. [And all would be in exactly the

same sub-clade of the same Y-haplogroup.] What would their ethnicities be?

They would be Norwegian, Spanish, African, Indian, Cambodian, Chinese, etc.

And what would they look like? Mostly, they would not look particularly like

their great great granddad--they would look like their neighbors. [And it

would be just plain silly to call all of them "Irish."]



This does not mean that it would be useless for them to check their

Y-chromosomes to find out who their 2nd great granddad and his paternal line

ancestors may have been. But it does mean that it would be useless for them

to check their Y-chromosomes to figure out what their ethnicity or "racial

characteristics" may be."



Y-DNA studies trace the strict paternal line. Period. This has nothing to do

with ethnicity. Period.



The Y-chromosome has only about 30-odd genes, almost all of which pertain to

spermatogenesis, so any significant mutation tends not to be passed on. As

far as I know, the only medical implication so far discovered is the linkage

between a specific null STR and one type of male infertility.



There are no "proclivities" of Y-DNA haplogroups. The markers that determine

haplogroups and haplotypes find NO EXPRESSION in the phenotype, they do not

code for proteins, they do not mark ethnic groups, and they do not support

crack-pot theories of the Israelites settling Britain. Give it a rest.



David Ewing



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