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Subject: Re: [DNA-R1B1C7] Just like DNA Primogeniture of symbols wastypically passed ...
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2008 00:48:34 EDT


Thank you for the information, it is interesting and informative. But this
site I believe is for DNA R1b1c7 DNA information. And not general.


In a message dated 8/18/2008 6:33:02 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
writes:

Is this thread on DNA R1b1c7 active?

On 7/3/08, <> wrote:
> _GAELIC IRISH HERALDRY and HERALDIC PRACTICE_
> (http://www.heraldry.ws/info/article03.html)
>
>
> By _Pat Brennan_ (mailto:)
> "For it is there read, that the whole host was wont to be placed under the
> command of one captain-in-chief, and that under him, each division of his
> force obeyed its own proper captain; and besides, that every captain of
these
> bore upon his standard his peculiar device or ensign." - From the
Description
> of the Battle of Magh Rath (637 AD) in Keating
> There is a fair amount of confusion about the use and abuse of "coats of
> arms." The general rule in England and much of Europe is that a coat of
arms can
> only belong to an individual, not to a family or clan. The use of the arms
> is typically passed from father to son through the system of
primogeniture.
> >From a legalistic standpoint, unless an individual can prove direct
descent
> from the owner of a coat of arms, it is not appropriate for him to use
those
> arms. However, as in many things, the situation is more complicated in
Ireland.
> It is necessary to go back in history to understand why.
> Heraldry, as we understand it in modern terms, was brought to Ireland by
the
> Normans. However the ancient Irish seem to have had their own system
symbols
> which they used prior to the coming to the Normans and which they
sometimes
> adapted to the Norman system. This essay is an attempt to look at Gaelic
> Irish Heraldic Practice over time from a historical viewpoint which is
informed
> by anthropology.
> ANCIENT IRISH SYMBOLS
> >From the earliest times, the Irish used flags and standards which they
> carried with them into battle. One of the earliest reports of battle
flags is in
> relation to the battle of Belach Duin Bolg in 594 AD. According to the
tale,
> while looking down on an armed camp the King of Leinster mistakes the
battle
> flags of the army for "a great stationary bird-flock of mixed colors,
such was
> the number of banners floating on tall poles over the booths."_1_
> (http://www.heraldry.ws/info/article03.html#sup1)
> In the accounts of ancient battles, there are a number of references to
the
> banners used by each chief and clan. For example, the account of the
Battle
> of Moyrath (637 AD) describes the banner of the Prince of Ulster as a
yellow
> lion on a green field. O'Doherty's battle standard is described, "his
battle
> blade of golden cross upon their chieftain's banner gleams; a lion and
bloody
> eagle stand on glistening sheet of satin white" (Quoted in O'Mahoney's
> footnote in Keating, History of Ireland).
> The symbol or picture displayed on an Irish banner was called a
suaicheantas
> or samlach. "Every captain bore upon his standard his peculiar device or
> ensign, so that each distinct body of men could be easily distinguished
from all
> others by those shanachies_2_
> (http://www.heraldry.ws/info/article03.html#sup2) whose duty it was to
attend the nobles when about to contend in battle,
> and that these shanachies might thus have a full view of the achievements
of
> the combatants, so as to be able to give a true account of their
particular
> deeds and valor" (Keating, History of Ireland)
> In the Caithreim Thoirdhealbhaigh, a famous medieval Gaelic text, Irish
> warriors in 1304 are described as "advancing under banners and ensigns of
> device." So it is clear that the Gaelic Irish had a very long tradition
of carrying
> flags and banners into battle. It is not so obvious whether the symbols
and
> devices on these banners were personal to the particular captain or if
they
> were a clan or sept symbol. Maybe there were several types or levels of
symbols
> and banners. Maybe there were rules about their use. Unfortunately, we
have
> only hints and circumstantial evidence about all this. A verse from the
> Caithreim Thoirdhealbhaigh gives us a tantalizing glimpse:
> Beneath the supreme chief's standard,
> uplifted be the spear-points of battle;
> To display them separately is not proper,
> but let all flags together form one threatening cloud...
>
> Why would it not be proper to display the flags separately? There must
have
> been some governing traditions about the display of symbols and banners.
> Unfortunately, we don't know what they were. This is important because, in
> English heraldry, possession of symbols and the right to display them is
the key
> issue.
>
>
>
>
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