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Archiver > DNA-R1B1C7 > 2008-06 > 1213287109


From: "Paul Conroy" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA-R1B1C7] General Question from rookie
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 12:11:49 -0400
References: <733782.78488.qm@web32507.mail.mud.yahoo.com><9656caf80806120813x6f75907doe81da2babe47135b@mail.gmail.com><015301c8cca0$79a5ecd0$6400a8c0@Ken1><9656caf80806120844i23d39d6fq135c7ac6c8b9b97c@mail.gmail.com><018501c8cca5$f2b138f0$6400a8c0@Ken1>
In-Reply-To: <018501c8cca5$f2b138f0$6400a8c0@Ken1>


Ken,

Yes, that would be me - as you see I am NOT related to other Conroy's, and
if you read the blurb in Ysearch, you will see why.

You say:

> But the haplotype I saw in the Conroy project has some other markers
> (beyond the first 12) which are so unusual
>

Oh really? Which ones and why?

Cheers,
Paul


On Thu, Jun 12, 2008 at 12:04 PM, Ken Nordtvedt <>
wrote:

> Ysearch does not allow surname searches right now. But I saw a NW Irish
> M222+ haplotype in the Conroy project. Is that you? If so, I would expect
> there to be tons of NW Irish M222+ 12 marker haplotypes with the 10 at 391
> instead of more common 11. Who, if any, of this clade the Levant fellow is
> related to is an open question. But the haplotype I saw in the Conroy
> project has some other markers (beyond the first 12) which are so unusual,
> they should be measured for this Levant fellow, and if they match you then
> the probabilities get more interesting.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Paul Conroy" <>
> To: <>
> Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2008 9:44 AM
> Subject: Re: [DNA-R1B1C7] General Question from rookie
>
>
> > Ken,
> >
> > I'm not sure what you're getting at - care to elucidate? Are you
> > suggesting
> > that no explanation is necessary?
> >
> > Do you have an explanation for people with a haplotype common in North
> > Western Ireland, having fairly close matches in the Levant?
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Paul
> >
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Jun 12, 2008 at 11:24 AM, Ken Nordtvedt <>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> Probably none of these scenarios apply. Unless your GD = 1 Mismatch on
> >> 12
> >> markers is for an EXTREMELY strange R1b1b2 haplotype, there probably is
> >> no
> >> meaning to it that rises above the statistics of the mutational process.
> >>
> >> But maybe you know something the rest of us do not concerning crusader
> >> ancestry or the like which tips the probabilities?
> >>
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "Paul Conroy" <>
> >> To: <>
> >> Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2008 9:13 AM
> >> Subject: Re: [DNA-R1B1C7] General Question from rookie
> >>
> >>
> >> > Mitch,
> >> >
> >> > I have a match with a Genetic Distance of 1 at 12-Markers in Syria,
> the
> >> > guy
> >> > is R1b1b2 as well, and describes his ancestry as Arab.
> >> >
> >> > I have 3 thoughts about this, in order of most likelihood:
> >> >
> >> > 1. There were many thousands of crusader knights in today's Israel,
> >> > Lebanon
> >> > and Syria in the Middle Ages, so they probably left some descendants.
> >> >
> >> > 2. That some Roman legionnaires might have been recruited from
> Britain,
> >> > and
> >> > stationed in the Levant and left descendants there.
> >> >
> >> > 3. That some of the Neolithic farmers spreading out of the Middle East
> >> may
> >> > have take a coastal migration route and settled in Ireland, and these
> >> > matches are all that remains of there ancestral population.
> >> >
> >> > Cheers,
> >> > Paul
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > On Thu, Jun 12, 2008 at 10:48 AM, Mitch <> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >> Thanks for the help, David. The results in question are from my
> cousin
> >> on
> >> >> my mother's side. A male descendant of my mother's father. I'm
> R1b1b2e
> >> >> (R1b1c7) and I have enlisted a couple of my cousins who are direct
> >> >> descendants of my maternal grandfather and great grandfathers to be
> >> >> tested.
> >> >> Good idea?
> >> >>
> >> >> I guess I'm confused about the line "currently published", sounded
> >> >> like
> >> >> he
> >> >> might fit into a new category down the road that has yet to be
> >> >> created.
> >> >> Adding the "e" (M222) gives more of a focused location. R1b1b2 sounds
> >> >> much
> >> >> more general as far as area. Correct? I was also surprised because I
> >> >> thought R1b1b2 was European and this family has lived in Lebanon for
> >> >> generations and generations.
> >> >>
> >> >> Thanks again
> >> >> Mitch
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> --- On Thu, 6/12/08, David Ewing <> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> From: David Ewing <>
> >> >> Subject: Re: [DNA-R1B1C7] General Question from rookie
> >> >> To:
> >> >> Date: Thursday, June 12, 2008, 10:14 AM
> >> >>
> >> >> Hi, Mitch.
> >> >>
> >> >> It is not at all unusual to find someone in R1b1b2* that is "negative
> >> for
> >> >> all currently published mutations downstream of M269;" indeed, the
> >> number
> >> >> of
> >> >> folks in this group probably exceeds the total of all of those who
> are
> >> >> positive for any of the downstream SNPs. You don't need to wait or do
> >> >> more
> >> >> testing to "see where he fits:" this is where he fits. [Notice the
> >> >> asterisk--this means "M269+ and negative for all currently published
> >> >> mutations downstream of M269," whereas R1b1b2 without the asterisk
> >> >> just
> >> >> means "M269+".]
> >> >>
> >> >> I am not sure I understood what you were saying about "a different
> >> >> ancestor," though. It would be highly unusual for a known male-line
> >> >> relative
> >> >> of yours not to have the same SNP as you, and therefore to be in the
> >> same
> >> >> haplogroup. I don't think you are testing your ancestors--unless you
> >> >> are
> >> >> using a shovel to collect DNA, eh? Do you and this R1b1b2 fellow have
> >> >> a
> >> >> common ancestor in genealogical time? If so, then you have a truly
> >> >> surprising result, and probably a mistake somewhere. Most of us would
> >> say
> >> >> that the fact you are R1b1b2e and he is R1b1b2* means that your most
> >> >> recent
> >> >> common ancestor lived many thousands of years ago--a minimum of 1500
> >> >> or
> >> >> so,
> >> >> but more likely at least several thousand, on the order of 10k. How
> do
> >> >> your
> >> >> STR panels compare? If these SNP results are accurate, I would guess
> >> that
> >> >> on
> >> >> the FTDNA 37-marker panel you would be at genetic distance 20, more
> or
> >> >> less.
> >> >> If you are only genetic distance 5 or so, the whole DNA community is
> >> >> going
> >> >> to be wanting to see your results and try to figure out what happened
> >> >> to
> >> >> the
> >> >> SNP.
> >> >>
> >> >> David Ewing
> >> >>
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