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Archiver > DNA-R1B1C7 > 2008-06 > 1213287082


From: "Ken Nordtvedt" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA-R1B1C7] General Question from rookie
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 10:11:22 -0600
References: <733782.78488.qm@web32507.mail.mud.yahoo.com><9656caf80806120813x6f75907doe81da2babe47135b@mail.gmail.com><015301c8cca0$79a5ecd0$6400a8c0@Ken1><9656caf80806120844i23d39d6fq135c7ac6c8b9b97c@mail.gmail.com><018201c8cca4$963a86e0$6400a8c0@Ken1><9656caf80806120903p6fcded13t756a6025d0f4b991@mail.gmail.com>


DYS456 and DYS449 are good places to start to look for serious matches,
especially the former.

In SMGF I found 40 haplotypes of the NW Irish type but with 10 at 391.
Germany, Switzerland, and Sweden had some of them, although Ireland still
really stood out.


----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Conroy" <>
To: <>
Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2008 10:03 AM
Subject: Re: [DNA-R1B1C7] General Question from rookie


> Ken,
>
> Here it is:
> http://www.ysearch.org/search_view.asp?uid=DFG6F&viewuid=DFG6F&p=1
>
> Cheers,
> Paul
>
> On Thu, Jun 12, 2008 at 11:54 AM, Ken Nordtvedt <>
> wrote:
>
>> NW Ireland? Sounds familar. I will look up your 12 marker haplotype to
>> see
>> how unusual it is.
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Paul Conroy" <>
>> To: <>
>> Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2008 9:44 AM
>> Subject: Re: [DNA-R1B1C7] General Question from rookie
>>
>>
>> > Ken,
>> >
>> > I'm not sure what you're getting at - care to elucidate? Are you
>> > suggesting
>> > that no explanation is necessary?
>> >
>> > Do you have an explanation for people with a haplotype common in North
>> > Western Ireland, having fairly close matches in the Levant?
>> >
>> > Cheers,
>> > Paul
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Thu, Jun 12, 2008 at 11:24 AM, Ken Nordtvedt
>> > <>
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> >> Probably none of these scenarios apply. Unless your GD = 1 Mismatch
>> >> on
>> >> 12
>> >> markers is for an EXTREMELY strange R1b1b2 haplotype, there probably
>> >> is
>> >> no
>> >> meaning to it that rises above the statistics of the mutational
>> >> process.
>> >>
>> >> But maybe you know something the rest of us do not concerning crusader
>> >> ancestry or the like which tips the probabilities?
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ----- Original Message -----
>> >> From: "Paul Conroy" <>
>> >> To: <>
>> >> Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2008 9:13 AM
>> >> Subject: Re: [DNA-R1B1C7] General Question from rookie
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> > Mitch,
>> >> >
>> >> > I have a match with a Genetic Distance of 1 at 12-Markers in Syria,
>> the
>> >> > guy
>> >> > is R1b1b2 as well, and describes his ancestry as Arab.
>> >> >
>> >> > I have 3 thoughts about this, in order of most likelihood:
>> >> >
>> >> > 1. There were many thousands of crusader knights in today's Israel,
>> >> > Lebanon
>> >> > and Syria in the Middle Ages, so they probably left some
>> >> > descendants.
>> >> >
>> >> > 2. That some Roman legionnaires might have been recruited from
>> Britain,
>> >> > and
>> >> > stationed in the Levant and left descendants there.
>> >> >
>> >> > 3. That some of the Neolithic farmers spreading out of the Middle
>> >> > East
>> >> may
>> >> > have take a coastal migration route and settled in Ireland, and
>> >> > these
>> >> > matches are all that remains of there ancestral population.
>> >> >
>> >> > Cheers,
>> >> > Paul
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > On Thu, Jun 12, 2008 at 10:48 AM, Mitch <> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Thanks for the help, David. The results in question are from my
>> cousin
>> >> on
>> >> >> my mother's side. A male descendant of my mother's father. I'm
>> R1b1b2e
>> >> >> (R1b1c7) and I have enlisted a couple of my cousins who are direct
>> >> >> descendants of my maternal grandfather and great grandfathers to be
>> >> >> tested.
>> >> >> Good idea?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I guess I'm confused about the line "currently published", sounded
>> >> >> like
>> >> >> he
>> >> >> might fit into a new category down the road that has yet to be
>> >> >> created.
>> >> >> Adding the "e" (M222) gives more of a focused location. R1b1b2
>> >> >> sounds
>> >> >> much
>> >> >> more general as far as area. Correct? I was also surprised because
>> >> >> I
>> >> >> thought R1b1b2 was European and this family has lived in Lebanon
>> >> >> for
>> >> >> generations and generations.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Thanks again
>> >> >> Mitch
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> --- On Thu, 6/12/08, David Ewing <> wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> From: David Ewing <>
>> >> >> Subject: Re: [DNA-R1B1C7] General Question from rookie
>> >> >> To:
>> >> >> Date: Thursday, June 12, 2008, 10:14 AM
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Hi, Mitch.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> It is not at all unusual to find someone in R1b1b2* that is
>> >> >> "negative
>> >> for
>> >> >> all currently published mutations downstream of M269;" indeed, the
>> >> number
>> >> >> of
>> >> >> folks in this group probably exceeds the total of all of those who
>> are
>> >> >> positive for any of the downstream SNPs. You don't need to wait or
>> >> >> do
>> >> >> more
>> >> >> testing to "see where he fits:" this is where he fits. [Notice the
>> >> >> asterisk--this means "M269+ and negative for all currently
>> >> >> published
>> >> >> mutations downstream of M269," whereas R1b1b2 without the asterisk
>> >> >> just
>> >> >> means "M269+".]
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I am not sure I understood what you were saying about "a different
>> >> >> ancestor," though. It would be highly unusual for a known male-line
>> >> >> relative
>> >> >> of yours not to have the same SNP as you, and therefore to be in
>> >> >> the
>> >> same
>> >> >> haplogroup. I don't think you are testing your ancestors--unless
>> >> >> you
>> >> >> are
>> >> >> using a shovel to collect DNA, eh? Do you and this R1b1b2 fellow
>> >> >> have
>> >> >> a
>> >> >> common ancestor in genealogical time? If so, then you have a truly
>> >> >> surprising result, and probably a mistake somewhere. Most of us
>> >> >> would
>> >> say
>> >> >> that the fact you are R1b1b2e and he is R1b1b2* means that your
>> >> >> most
>> >> >> recent
>> >> >> common ancestor lived many thousands of years ago--a minimum of
>> >> >> 1500
>> >> >> or
>> >> >> so,
>> >> >> but more likely at least several thousand, on the order of 10k. How
>> do
>> >> >> your
>> >> >> STR panels compare? If these SNP results are accurate, I would
>> >> >> guess
>> >> that
>> >> >> on
>> >> >> the FTDNA 37-marker panel you would be at genetic distance 20, more
>> or
>> >> >> less.
>> >> >> If you are only genetic distance 5 or so, the whole DNA community
>> >> >> is
>> >> >> going
>> >> >> to be wanting to see your results and try to figure out what
>> >> >> happened
>> >> >> to
>> >> >> the
>> >> >> SNP.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> David Ewing
>> >> >>
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