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Archiver > DNA-R1B1C7 > 2008-06 > 1213286064


From: "Ken Nordtvedt" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA-R1B1C7] General Question from rookie
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 09:54:24 -0600
References: <733782.78488.qm@web32507.mail.mud.yahoo.com><9656caf80806120813x6f75907doe81da2babe47135b@mail.gmail.com><015301c8cca0$79a5ecd0$6400a8c0@Ken1><9656caf80806120844i23d39d6fq135c7ac6c8b9b97c@mail.gmail.com>


NW Ireland? Sounds familar. I will look up your 12 marker haplotype to see
how unusual it is.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Conroy" <>
To: <>
Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2008 9:44 AM
Subject: Re: [DNA-R1B1C7] General Question from rookie


> Ken,
>
> I'm not sure what you're getting at - care to elucidate? Are you
> suggesting
> that no explanation is necessary?
>
> Do you have an explanation for people with a haplotype common in North
> Western Ireland, having fairly close matches in the Levant?
>
> Cheers,
> Paul
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jun 12, 2008 at 11:24 AM, Ken Nordtvedt <>
> wrote:
>
>> Probably none of these scenarios apply. Unless your GD = 1 Mismatch on
>> 12
>> markers is for an EXTREMELY strange R1b1b2 haplotype, there probably is
>> no
>> meaning to it that rises above the statistics of the mutational process.
>>
>> But maybe you know something the rest of us do not concerning crusader
>> ancestry or the like which tips the probabilities?
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Paul Conroy" <>
>> To: <>
>> Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2008 9:13 AM
>> Subject: Re: [DNA-R1B1C7] General Question from rookie
>>
>>
>> > Mitch,
>> >
>> > I have a match with a Genetic Distance of 1 at 12-Markers in Syria, the
>> > guy
>> > is R1b1b2 as well, and describes his ancestry as Arab.
>> >
>> > I have 3 thoughts about this, in order of most likelihood:
>> >
>> > 1. There were many thousands of crusader knights in today's Israel,
>> > Lebanon
>> > and Syria in the Middle Ages, so they probably left some descendants.
>> >
>> > 2. That some Roman legionnaires might have been recruited from Britain,
>> > and
>> > stationed in the Levant and left descendants there.
>> >
>> > 3. That some of the Neolithic farmers spreading out of the Middle East
>> may
>> > have take a coastal migration route and settled in Ireland, and these
>> > matches are all that remains of there ancestral population.
>> >
>> > Cheers,
>> > Paul
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Thu, Jun 12, 2008 at 10:48 AM, Mitch <> wrote:
>> >
>> >>
>> >> Thanks for the help, David. The results in question are from my cousin
>> on
>> >> my mother's side. A male descendant of my mother's father. I'm R1b1b2e
>> >> (R1b1c7) and I have enlisted a couple of my cousins who are direct
>> >> descendants of my maternal grandfather and great grandfathers to be
>> >> tested.
>> >> Good idea?
>> >>
>> >> I guess I'm confused about the line "currently published", sounded
>> >> like
>> >> he
>> >> might fit into a new category down the road that has yet to be
>> >> created.
>> >> Adding the "e" (M222) gives more of a focused location. R1b1b2 sounds
>> >> much
>> >> more general as far as area. Correct? I was also surprised because I
>> >> thought R1b1b2 was European and this family has lived in Lebanon for
>> >> generations and generations.
>> >>
>> >> Thanks again
>> >> Mitch
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --- On Thu, 6/12/08, David Ewing <> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> From: David Ewing <>
>> >> Subject: Re: [DNA-R1B1C7] General Question from rookie
>> >> To:
>> >> Date: Thursday, June 12, 2008, 10:14 AM
>> >>
>> >> Hi, Mitch.
>> >>
>> >> It is not at all unusual to find someone in R1b1b2* that is "negative
>> for
>> >> all currently published mutations downstream of M269;" indeed, the
>> number
>> >> of
>> >> folks in this group probably exceeds the total of all of those who are
>> >> positive for any of the downstream SNPs. You don't need to wait or do
>> >> more
>> >> testing to "see where he fits:" this is where he fits. [Notice the
>> >> asterisk--this means "M269+ and negative for all currently published
>> >> mutations downstream of M269," whereas R1b1b2 without the asterisk
>> >> just
>> >> means "M269+".]
>> >>
>> >> I am not sure I understood what you were saying about "a different
>> >> ancestor," though. It would be highly unusual for a known male-line
>> >> relative
>> >> of yours not to have the same SNP as you, and therefore to be in the
>> same
>> >> haplogroup. I don't think you are testing your ancestors--unless you
>> >> are
>> >> using a shovel to collect DNA, eh? Do you and this R1b1b2 fellow have
>> >> a
>> >> common ancestor in genealogical time? If so, then you have a truly
>> >> surprising result, and probably a mistake somewhere. Most of us would
>> say
>> >> that the fact you are R1b1b2e and he is R1b1b2* means that your most
>> >> recent
>> >> common ancestor lived many thousands of years ago--a minimum of 1500
>> >> or
>> >> so,
>> >> but more likely at least several thousand, on the order of 10k. How do
>> >> your
>> >> STR panels compare? If these SNP results are accurate, I would guess
>> that
>> >> on
>> >> the FTDNA 37-marker panel you would be at genetic distance 20, more or
>> >> less.
>> >> If you are only genetic distance 5 or so, the whole DNA community is
>> >> going
>> >> to be wanting to see your results and try to figure out what happened
>> >> to
>> >> the
>> >> SNP.
>> >>
>> >> David Ewing
>> >>
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