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From:
Subject: Re: [DNA-R1B1C7] Interesting developments -- new SNP S116
Date: Mon, 5 May 2008 19:34:30 EDT


In a message dated 5/5/2008 3:19:42 P.M. Central Standard Time,
writes:
David Wilson,

As I am previously tested M222- (and curious about my relationship? with the
R1b1c7 subclade), I recently tested with FTDNA for rs34276300 (EA=S116).

FTDNA now shows me as: POSITIVE for this SNP (rs34276300+).

That's interesting. I think (David Wilson could say for sure) you are one
of two samples so far that have much of the characteristic R1b1c7 markers but
are not M222+. The other one I know of is a Wilson from David's Wilson
project.

Where's there's one or two there have to be more. I wonder how many of the
DNA samples out there that mimic R1b1c7 are really pre-M222? There's a lot
of DNA that is virtually indistinguishable from R1b1c7 at 12 markers (DYS 390
= 25; DYS 392 = 14, DYS 389II = 29). At 12 markers, the Le Compte DNA is
identical to an Herbert from Normandy, France, in the German DNA Project at
FTDNA. There are a lot of DNA samples in the French Heritage Project at FTDNA
with at least part of the R1b1c7 modal at 12 markers (DYS 390 = 25; DYS 392 =
14). A lot more have little more than DYS 392 = 14. As a total percentage of
the French Heritage Project these samples are a very small part of the
total.

Many of these samples are just 12 marker tests; they've never been upgraded
and probably will never be. SNP tests are probably out of the question for
most of these. At 25 markers most of these samples fall apart in terms of
matching the R1b1c7 modal, especially at DYS 464abcd. The Le Compte sample is
15-15-16-16 at that marker. That's pretty common in this group. Others are
15-16-16-16 with all kinds of variations.

One sample in the French Project is Galyean, also on Ysearch. He has tested
positive for M222+. At 12 markers his DNA fits in with the rest of the
group. At 25 markers he matches the R1b1c7 modal a little better at 437-449
(15-18-30). But his DYS 464abcd results are indistinguishable from the rest
(15-16-16-16),

Since Le Compte tested positive for the new S116 SNP (rs34276300) I have to
wonder if the rest of this group will as well. But all that really says is
you are not R1b1c9. M222 is still downstream from that as is R1b1c10 plus
some of the other categories like R1b1c6 etc..

To those wondering about R1b1b2e it's nothing more than new terminology for
M222+ and R1b1c7 from the latest Hammer paper.

The following names from the French Heritage DNA project all match at least
part of the R1b1c7 modal (plus Le Compte, Fleury and a few others from
Ysearch).

3A5MSLe Compte Rouen), France
German Proj.(FTDNA) Hebert Normandy, France
Wilson (from the Wilson Family Surname Project)
99541 Maurice FRENCH HERITAGE Y-DNA PROJECT
N58749 Reno FRENCH HERITAGE Y-DNA PROJECT
FXS2J Fleury Ireland
N25863 Bodrie FRENCH HERITAGE Y-DNA PROJECT
N33005 Bertrand FRENCH HERITAGE Y-DNA PROJECT
N54989 Chartier FRENCH HERITAGE Y-DNA PROJECT
N5613 Galyean FRENCH HERITAGE Y-DNA PROJECT
PZBYY Galyean SC (U.S.)
N11373 CLOUTIER FRENCH HERITAGE Y-DNA PROJECT
46967 Simard FRENCH HERITAGE Y-DNA PROJECT
N12175 Simard FRENCH HERITAGE Y-DNA PROJECT
N12175 Simard FRENCH HERITAGE Y-DNA PROJECT
N7801Gillet FRENCH HERITAGE Y-DNA PROJECT
N6464 Norman FRENCH HERITAGE Y-DNA PROJECT
68346 Beaudry FRENCH HERITAGE Y-DNA PROJECT

Lastly I have a question for David Wilson. Did the characteristic R1b1c7
markers exist before the SNP M222+ mutation occurred? Would this new SNP have
changed previous STR markers or is it completely independent of the markers
themselves? Can we see the beginnings of R1b1c7 in DNA samples that mimic
part of R1b1c7 but not the whole modal? Or are some of these mutations (like
DYS 392 = 14) just coincindenttal random mutations? There is a lot of R1b that
has DYS 392 = 14 but little else of the R1b1c7 modal.

One interesting note I've mentioned before but will repeat here is the
Wilson sample that appears to be R1b1c7 but does not test M222+ perfectly mimics
the characteristic markers we see in the MacLochlainn of Donegal sept in
Ireland and in some 16% of the Dohertys from the same area and a few other local
Donegal septs as well. These markers are DYs 458 = 18; DYS 447 = 24; DYS
576 = 17. You can probably add 37-38 at CDYab as well.


John






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