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Archiver > DNA-R1B1C7 > 2008-04 > 1209336727


From: "Thomas Tucker" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA-R1B1C7] DNA-R1B1C7 Digest, Vol 2, Issue 72
Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2008 18:52:07 -0400
References: <mailman.25.1208761208.7082.dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com><6e57e9120804260642w59d836b6ld5e93c685d5349a@mail.gmail.com><BAY130-W40845F0A277521863550EABBDF0@phx.gbl><BAYC1-PASMTP097AE18BD7A21A4CB06B2EF7DF0@CEZ.ICE>
In-Reply-To: <BAYC1-PASMTP097AE18BD7A21A4CB06B2EF7DF0@CEZ.ICE>


I am with you Frank. I know we are related to Nial..are we not ?

On 4/27/08, frank mcgonigal <> wrote:
> I don't really understand all the ins and outs of the technical side of
> R1b1c7 Y DNA etc.,but this posting leaves me completely at a loss.
> I know it wasn't supposed to come thru as a blob as it did,but couldn't it
> have been formatted differently so that we who are technically and
> historically challenged could understand it better.
> Same with the previous one ..
> Frank McGonigal Ont.Canada
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bernard Morgan" <>
> To: <>
> Sent: Sunday, April 27, 2008 5:14 PM
> Subject: Re: [DNA-R1B1C7] DNA-R1B1C7 Digest, Vol 2, Issue 72
>
>
>
> Crinan abbot of Dunkeld would be an obivous candidate for membership of the
> ruling Cenél nGabráin sept (ignoring the Ui Neill church connections). With
> the new SNPs are there any new results showing R1b1c9's in East Ulster?>
> Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2008 09:42:58 -0400> From: > To:
> > Subject: Re: [DNA-R1B1C7] DNA-R1B1C7 Digest, Vol 2,
> Issue 72> > If you look at the Dunbar Project you'll see that our Crinan
> descendant has> recently tested R1b1c9 positive. If the Irwin Project were
> to SNP test> their Bonshaw descendant we'd probably find the same
> haplogroup> designation. Bonshaw's markers don't match with the Niall Modal
> either.> So, one of two things have occurred. Either the brothers, Crinan &>
> Eryvine, descend from another ancestor other than Niall or the genetic>
> genealogy community has misnamed the R1b1c7 haplogroup. More than likely,>
> it's the former.> > Plus, the jury is still out concerning the genetic
> relationship between> Crinan & Eryvine. When comparing the haploancestors
> for both projects they> run 58/67....GD9. The standard max is GD7 @ 67.
> Terry Barton of World> Families evaluated this last year and concluded that
> when you're dealing> with over a 1000 years since the two family's branched
> off (c975) and a 1000> years of mutations, it's still very possible that
> these two family's are> genetically connected. Only one Irwin participant
> appears in the Dunbar> Founder Line group's match pages. He is 61/67 with
> the Dunbar/Crinan> haploancestor and 64/67 with the Irwin/Bonshaw
> haploancestor. From a> layman's point of view, it's because of this
> participants distant match with> Dunbar and closer match with Irwin that I
> feel Bonshaw would probably test> positive to R1b1c9.> > I would welcome any
> further thoughts concerning this development.> > Debra, Administrator Dunbar
> DNA Project> > > > On Mon, Apr 21, 2008 at 3:00 AM,
> <> wrote:> > >> >> > Today's Topics:> >> > 1.
> Lending credibility to the NIAL THERORY ()> >> >>
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------> >>
> > Message: 1> > Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2008 09:42:02 EDT> > From:
> > > Subject: [DNA-R1B1C7] Lending credibility to the NIAL
> THERORY> > To: > > Message-ID:
> <>> > Content-Type: text/plain;
> charset="UTF-8"> >> > R1B1C7 DNA that is connected to certain surnames and
> to these ancient> > family> > surnames appears to lend more credibility to
> the alleged decedents of> > NIALL> > OF THE NINE HOSTAGES THERORY> > .Gene>
> > _Clan Irwin Association_ (http://www.clanirwin.org/hbonshaw.php) THE> >
> IRVINGS OF BONSHAW> > HISTORY. According to ancient family traditions (which
> are largely> > supported> > by known historical fact; and which are first
> recorded in the very short> > family history, ?The Original of the Family of
> the Irvines or Erinvines',> > written in 1678 by Dr. Christopher Irvine,
> M.D., Historiographer Royal of> > Scotland)> > the Irvings of Bonshaw are
> descended from DUNCAN, known in the family as> > 'Duncan of Eskdale', a
> younger brother of Crinan, the husband of Princess> > Beatrix and father of
> King Duncan I of Scotland. The paternal grandfather> > of Duncan> > of
> Eskdale and Crinan was DUNCAN, hereditary Abthane of Dule and lay> > abbot>
> > of Dunkeld. The latter Duncan is now believed to have been a direct> >
> descendant> > of NIALL OF THE NINE HOSTAGES, who was high King of Ireland
> early in the> > 5th> > century A.D and progenitor of the oldest recorded
> families in Europe that> > are still extant in an unbroken male line. The
> Duncan, as Abthane of> > Dule-an> > ancient title connected with St.
> Adamnan's abbey of Dull, and dating from> > nearly 200 years before the
> union of the Scottish and Pictish crowns in> > 843> > A.D.-was of more
> consequence than any one of the seven Pictish 'Mormaers',> > being> > second
> only to the king himself in power and importance. He appears to> > have
> been> > appointed Governor of Strathclyde when that region was conquered by
> the> > Saxons and given to Malcolm I of Alban (the early name of Scotland)
> in> > 946. His> > residence in Strathclyde is supposed to have been the old
> fort of Eryvine,> > or> > Orewyn, where the town of Irvine now stands, so we
> refer to him the '1st> > of> > Eryvine'. Both Duncan and his neighbour
> Dubdon, Mormaer of Athole, were> > killed> > at the battle of Duncrub c. 965
> A.D., while leading their forces against> > a> > strong rebel army of their
> fellow countrymen.*> > DUNCAN, 1st of ERYVINE, was succeeded by his eldest
> son and heir, also> > DUNCAN, about whom we know little except that he also
> seems to have> > succeeded> > Dubdon as Mormaer of Athole, as he is called
> 'Lord of Athole'. At the> > battle of> > Luncarty (of uncertain date), where
> the Danes were routed, Duncan> > commanded the> > left wing of the Scottish
> forces, under King Kenneth III. This Duncan is> > the> > progenitor of the
> oldest recorded families in Great Britain; the noble> > family of Dunbar is
> certainly descended from him, and traditionally so> > are the> > noble
> families of Irving and Home, all in the male line; not to mention> > the> >
> Royal Family and numerous other families by female descent.> > DUNCAN, 2ND
> OF ERYVINE, was succeeded by his eldest son, CRINAN, who> > married> >
> Princess Beatrix (or Bethoc) daughter and heiress of King Malcolm II of> >
> Scotland, and by her was father of Duncan I, who reigned as King of> >
> Scotland for> > six years. Crinan was the progenitor in the male line of all
> the kings of> > Scotland down to Alexander III (died 1286), and in the
> female line of all> > the> > sovereigns of Scotland down to the present day,
> with the sole exception of> > Macbeth, who murdered his son, King Duncan, in
> 1040, and reigned for the> > next> > seventeen years. Tradition tells us
> that Crinan maintained a residence at> > Eryvine, but that he was the last
> of his family to do so, the fortress> > being used> > solely for military
> purposes thereafter. He was killed by Macbeth's forces> > in> > 1045, while
> trying to avenge his son's death and grandson's deposition.> > *A standing
> stone on the battlefield just north of the village of> > Dunning,> > in
> Perthshire, still marks Duncan's tomb.> > **This article was copied from
> ?THE IRVINGS OF BONSHAW, Chiefs of the> > Noble> > and Ancient Scots Border
> Family of Irving?, written by Alastair M.T.> > Maxwell-Irving, B.Sc., F.S.A.
> Scot. (of the House of 'Irving of> > Dumfries'), printed> > in 1968, and
> partially reproduced here, only changing fonts and style to> > fit> > our
> site.> > THE NAME. About 1020, DUNCAN OF Eskdale's eldest son married an
> heiress> > of> > the ancient British royal line of Coel Hen and took up
> residence at her> > ancestral home, the ancient hill-fort of Dumbretton (the
> name means 'Fort> > of the> > Britons'). Shortly afterwards, either she, or
> one of his descendants,> > built a> > new castle in Kirtledale, two miles
> further east and on or near the> > present> > site of Bonshaw; he took up
> residence there and gave it the name Irwyn> > which had> > by then become
> firmly associated with the family-as Irewyn in Ayrshire,> > Owyrn in
> Eskdale, and Heryn (the seat of Crinan's brother Grim, Thane of> >
> Strathearn) in Strathearn.> > BRUCE'S CAVE. The Irvings and Bruces became
> very close friends and> > allies.> > Tradition relates that ?The Bruce? was
> a guest at Bonshaw in 1298, and> > when> > he fled from the court of Edward
> I of England, in 1306, his first night> > back> > in Scotland was spent in
> the security of its fastness. - There is a cave> > in> > the Kirtle cliffs
> at Cove, in which the Irvings ae reputed to have hidden> > Bruce> > from the
> English on at least one occasion around this time.> > BONSHAW TOWER. Bonshaw
> Tower and the modern house adjacent to it stand on> > a> > piece of level
> ground, bounded on the east by a high cliff with the Kirtle> > Water washing
> its base; on the south by the steep ravine down which the> > Old Caul> >
> Burn runs to meet the Kirtle; on the west by rough ground and the> >
> farmyard> > of Bonshaw Mains (one barn there is dated '1764' and initialed
> 'W.I)> > where> > ramparts and ditches once stood. To the west lie the lands
> of Dumbretton,> > Robgill lies to the south, Woodhouse a little further
> downstream, and> > Cove beyond.> > Wysebie is across the river, and further
> upstream lies Braes and Old> > Kirkconnel. Of the numerous Irving towers
> that once guarded the central> > Irving> > territory of Kirtledale, only
> Bonshaw; the ruins of Woodhouse, Stapleton,> > and New> > Kirkconnel (at
> Ecclefechan); and part of Robgill, incorporated in a> > modern> > mansion;
> now remain.> > The present tower at Bonshaw is now known to have been built
> around> > 1535-50,> > and probably between 1542 and 1548, the latter date
> being the known date> > of> > erection of the Irvings' lesser stone tower at
> Kirkpatrick, (a dated> > armorial> > stone from the tower is preserved
> there.) further down the Kirtle. It> > successfully withstood four sieges by
> the Maxwells in 1585-6, during at> > least two> > of which cannon was used.>
> > The Tower is a solid rectangular keep. A 58-step wheel stair climbs from>
> > the> > ground level basement (prison floor) to the parapet walk above the
> third> > floor. The first floor was the Great Hall with a great fireplace,
> 9ft> > wide x 7ft'> > high; second floor was the principal family room,
> serving as withdrawing> > room and bedroom; third floor, former garret, now
> serves as the history> > room,> > having a long, handwritten ancestral chart
> hanging on the wall. Mounted> > just> > below the top of the north gable is
> the old clan bell, the only one of> > its kind> > known to exist, which once
> summoned the clan in times of danger.> > This article was written by Betty
> Irvin, using some excerpts extracted> > from> > 'The Irvings of Bonshaw' by
> Alastair M.T. Maxwell-Irving, B.Sc., F.S.A.> > Scot> >> >> >> >
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> > ------------------------------> >> >> >> > End of DNA-R1B1C7 Digest, Vol
> 2, Issue 72> > *****************************************> >> > > > -- >
> Debra Dunbar Nowell – Administrator - Dunbar Surname YDNA Project> >
> http://www.dunbardna.org/>; > -------------------------------> To unsubscribe
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