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Archiver > DNA-R1B1C7 > 2008-04 > 1209327407

From: Bernard Morgan <>
Subject: Re: [DNA-R1B1C7] Crinan abbot of Dunkeld question
Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2008 20:16:47 +0000
References: <mailman.25.1208761208.7082.dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com><6e57e9120804260642w59d836b6ld5e93c685d5349a@mail.gmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <6e57e9120804260642w59d836b6ld5e93c685d5349a@mail.gmail.com>

Crinan abbot of Dunkeld would be an obivous candidate for membership of the ruling Cenél nGabráin sept (ignoring the Ui Neill church connections). With the new SNPs are there any new results showing R1b1c9's in East Ulster?> Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2008 09:42:58 -0400> From: > To: > Subject: Re: [DNA-R1B1C7] DNA-R1B1C7 Digest, Vol 2, Issue 72> > If you look at the Dunbar Project you'll see that our Crinan descendant has> recently tested R1b1c9 positive. If the Irwin Project were to SNP test> their Bonshaw descendant we'd probably find the same haplogroup> designation. Bonshaw's markers don't match with the Niall Modal either.> So, one of two things have occurred. Either the brothers, Crinan &> Eryvine, descend from another ancestor other than Niall or the genetic> genealogy community has misnamed the R1b1c7 haplogroup. More than likely,> it's the former.> > Plus, the jury is still out concerning the genetic relationship between> Crinan & Eryvine. When comparing the haploancestors for both projects they> run 58/67....GD9. The standard max is GD7 @ 67. Terry Barton of World> Families evaluated this last year and concluded that when you're dealing> with over a 1000 years since the two family's branched off (c975) and a 1000> years of mutations, it's still very possible that these two family's are> genetically connected. Only one Irwin participant appears in the Dunbar> Founder Line group's match pages. He is 61/67 with the Dunbar/Crinan> haploancestor and 64/67 with the Irwin/Bonshaw haploancestor. From a> layman's point of view, it's because of this participants distant match with> Dunbar and closer match with Irwin that I feel Bonshaw would probably test> positive to R1b1c9.> > I would welcome any further thoughts concerning this development.> > Debra, Administrator Dunbar DNA Project> > > > On Mon, Apr 21, 2008 at 3:00 AM, <> wrote:> > >> >> > Today's Topics:> >> > 1. Lending credibility to the NIAL THERORY ()> >> >> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------> >> > Message: 1> > Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2008 09:42:02 EDT> > From: > > Subject: [DNA-R1B1C7] Lending credibility to the NIAL THERORY> > To: > > Message-ID: <>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"> >> > R1B1C7 DNA that is connected to certain surnames and to these ancient> > family> > surnames appears to lend more credibility to the alleged decedents of> > NIALL> > OF THE NINE HOSTAGES THERORY> > .Gene> > _Clan Irwin Association_ (http://www.clanirwin.org/hbonshaw.php) THE> > IRVINGS OF BONSHAW> > HISTORY. According to ancient family traditions (which are largely> > supported> > by known historical fact; and which are first recorded in the very short> > family history, ?The Original of the Family of the Irvines or Erinvines',> > written in 1678 by Dr. Christopher Irvine, M.D., Historiographer Royal of> > Scotland)> > the Irvings of Bonshaw are descended from DUNCAN, known in the family as> > 'Duncan of Eskdale', a younger brother of Crinan, the husband of Princess> > Beatrix and father of King Duncan I of Scotland. The paternal grandfather> > of Duncan> > of Eskdale and Crinan was DUNCAN, hereditary Abthane of Dule and lay> > abbot> > of Dunkeld. The latter Duncan is now believed to have been a direct> > descendant> > of NIALL OF THE NINE HOSTAGES, who was high King of Ireland early in the> > 5th> > century A.D and progenitor of the oldest recorded families in Europe that> > are still extant in an unbroken male line. The Duncan, as Abthane of> > Dule-an> > ancient title connected with St. Adamnan's abbey of Dull, and dating from> > nearly 200 years before the union of the Scottish and Pictish crowns in> > 843> > A.D.-was of more consequence than any one of the seven Pictish 'Mormaers',> > being> > second only to the king himself in power and importance. He appears to> > have been> > appointed Governor of Strathclyde when that region was conquered by the> > Saxons and given to Malcolm I of Alban (the early name of Scotland) in> > 946. His> > residence in Strathclyde is supposed to have been the old fort of Eryvine,> > or> > Orewyn, where the town of Irvine now stands, so we refer to him the '1st> > of> > Eryvine'. Both Duncan and his neighbour Dubdon, Mormaer of Athole, were> > killed> > at the battle of Duncrub c. 965 A.D., while leading their forces against> > a> > strong rebel army of their fellow countrymen.*> > DUNCAN, 1st of ERYVINE, was succeeded by his eldest son and heir, also> > DUNCAN, about whom we know little except that he also seems to have> > succeeded> > Dubdon as Mormaer of Athole, as he is called 'Lord of Athole'. At the> > battle of> > Luncarty (of uncertain date), where the Danes were routed, Duncan> > commanded the> > left wing of the Scottish forces, under King Kenneth III. This Duncan is> > the> > progenitor of the oldest recorded families in Great Britain; the noble> > family of Dunbar is certainly descended from him, and traditionally so> > are the> > noble families of Irving and Home, all in the male line; not to mention> > the> > Royal Family and numerous other families by female descent.> > DUNCAN, 2ND OF ERYVINE, was succeeded by his eldest son, CRINAN, who> > married> > Princess Beatrix (or Bethoc) daughter and heiress of King Malcolm II of> > Scotland, and by her was father of Duncan I, who reigned as King of> > Scotland for> > six years. Crinan was the progenitor in the male line of all the kings of> > Scotland down to Alexander III (died 1286), and in the female line of all> > the> > sovereigns of Scotland down to the present day, with the sole exception of> > Macbeth, who murdered his son, King Duncan, in 1040, and reigned for the> > next> > seventeen years. Tradition tells us that Crinan maintained a residence at> > Eryvine, but that he was the last of his family to do so, the fortress> > being used> > solely for military purposes thereafter. He was killed by Macbeth's forces> > in> > 1045, while trying to avenge his son's death and grandson's deposition.> > *A standing stone on the battlefield just north of the village of> > Dunning,> > in Perthshire, still marks Duncan's tomb.> > **This article was copied from ?THE IRVINGS OF BONSHAW, Chiefs of the> > Noble> > and Ancient Scots Border Family of Irving?, written by Alastair M.T.> > Maxwell-Irving, B.Sc., F.S.A. Scot. (of the House of 'Irving of> > Dumfries'), printed> > in 1968, and partially reproduced here, only changing fonts and style to> > fit> > our site.> > THE NAME. About 1020, DUNCAN OF Eskdale's eldest son married an heiress> > of> > the ancient British royal line of Coel Hen and took up residence at her> > ancestral home, the ancient hill-fort of Dumbretton (the name means 'Fort> > of the> > Britons'). Shortly afterwards, either she, or one of his descendants,> > built a> > new castle in Kirtledale, two miles further east and on or near the> > present> > site of Bonshaw; he took up residence there and gave it the name Irwyn> > which had> > by then become firmly associated with the family-as Irewyn in Ayrshire,> > Owyrn in Eskdale, and Heryn (the seat of Crinan's brother Grim, Thane of> > Strathearn) in Strathearn.> > BRUCE'S CAVE. The Irvings and Bruces became very close friends and> > allies.> > Tradition relates that ?The Bruce? was a guest at Bonshaw in 1298, and> > when> > he fled from the court of Edward I of England, in 1306, his first night> > back> > in Scotland was spent in the security of its fastness. - There is a cave> > in> > the Kirtle cliffs at Cove, in which the Irvings ae reputed to have hidden> > Bruce> > from the English on at least one occasion around this time.> > BONSHAW TOWER. Bonshaw Tower and the modern house adjacent to it stand on> > a> > piece of level ground, bounded on the east by a high cliff with the Kirtle> > Water washing its base; on the south by the steep ravine down which the> > Old Caul> > Burn runs to meet the Kirtle; on the west by rough ground and the> > farmyard> > of Bonshaw Mains (one barn there is dated '1764' and initialed 'W.I)> > where> > ramparts and ditches once stood. To the west lie the lands of Dumbretton,> > Robgill lies to the south, Woodhouse a little further downstream, and> > Cove beyond.> > Wysebie is across the river, and further upstream lies Braes and Old> > Kirkconnel. Of the numerous Irving towers that once guarded the central> > Irving> > territory of Kirtledale, only Bonshaw; the ruins of Woodhouse, Stapleton,> > and New> > Kirkconnel (at Ecclefechan); and part of Robgill, incorporated in a> > modern> > mansion; now remain.> > The present tower at Bonshaw is now known to have been built around> > 1535-50,> > and probably between 1542 and 1548, the latter date being the known date> > of> > erection of the Irvings' lesser stone tower at Kirkpatrick, (a dated> > armorial> > stone from the tower is preserved there.) further down the Kirtle. It> > successfully withstood four sieges by the Maxwells in 1585-6, during at> > least two> > of which cannon was used.> > The Tower is a solid rectangular keep. A 58-step wheel stair climbs from> > the> > ground level basement (prison floor) to the parapet walk above the third> > floor. The first floor was the Great Hall with a great fireplace, 9ft> > wide x 7ft'> > high; second floor was the principal family room, serving as withdrawing> > room and bedroom; third floor, former garret, now serves as the history> > room,> > having a long, handwritten ancestral chart hanging on the wall. Mounted> > just> > below the top of the north gable is the old clan bell, the only one of> > its kind> > known to exist, which once summoned the clan in times of danger.> > This article was written by Betty Irvin, using some excerpts extracted> > from> > 'The Irvings of Bonshaw' by Alastair M.T. Maxwell-Irving, B.Sc., F.S.A.> > Scot> >> >> >> > **************Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used> > car> > listings at AOL Autos.> > (http://autos.aol.com/used?NCID=aolcmp00300000002851)>; >> >> > ------------------------------> >> >> >> > End of DNA-R1B1C7 Digest, Vol 2, Issue 72> > *****************************************> >> > > > -- > Debra Dunbar Nowell – Administrator - Dunbar Surname YDNA Project> > http://www.dunbardna.org/>; > -------------------------------> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
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