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Archiver > DNA-R1B1C7 > 2008-04 > 1207338054


From: "Paul Conroy" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA-R1B1C7] R1b1b2e??
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2008 15:40:54 -0400
References: <d22.216a9234.3527d56f@aol.com>
In-Reply-To: <d22.216a9234.3527d56f@aol.com>


John,

I agree with what you're saying, and think that map site is great. Yes there
are a number of tribes who were dispersed across Britain and Ireland.

However, I was specifically referring to immigrants from continental Europe,
where the point of origin is definitely known - to me the only group that
fits the bill are the Menapii (Latin name) - later called Manaig (Irish
name).

Other groups like the Laigin or the Erainn, where did the come from? Could
have been Armorica (todays Brittany), Gaul, Aquitaine, someplace in Iberia,
like Gallicia, or further afield, who knows??

Regards,
Paul

On Fri, Apr 4, 2008 at 3:03 PM, <> wrote:

>
> In a message dated 4/4/2008 8:37:22 A.M. Central Standard Time,
> writes:
>
> The only well documented continental migration to Ireland was that of the
> Belgic tribe Menapii, to the Wexford area - extreme South East of the
> country - and the founding of their principal town Menapia, which later
> became Wexford town. The Belgae of course may have been speaking a Celtic
> or
> Germanic dialect - the latter according to Oppenheimer. It is interesting
> in
> light of Oppenheimer's theory of the supposed fourth major branch of the
> Germanic language - Old English, and its derivatives - that up till the
> mid
> 1800's the people of South East Wexford, spoke a dialect called Yola, a
> Germano-English dialect, which may have been introduced by the Belgae,
> Vikings or Normans, or a combination of them all:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yola_language
>
>
>
> Paul, the article you refer to actually says Yola (a branch of middle
> English) was probably introduced by English followers of the Norman
> barons who
> invaded Ireland in 1169. The Manapii are thought by some scholars to be
> the
> ancient Monaigh of Ireland who appear in some early genealogical
> manuscripts
> with a shadowy history of migrating north from Leinster (giving their
> tribe name
> to Fermanagh, among other locations), There does seem to be some
> agreement
> they are probably the same tribe as the Menapii of Gaul. I don't know
> how
> well documented any of this is. It's mostly based on tribe names in
> Ptolemy's
> map and Roman descriptions of the tribes of Gaul.
>
> O'Rahilly mentions several possible late arrivals in Ireland, one of
> which
> are the Lagin of Leinster, whom he connects to the Fir Domnainn of Irish
> history and from thence to the Dumnonii of SW England (Devon and
> Cornwall) and
> Armorica in Gaul. I don't think this is documented except in some very
> old
> tribe and territorial names in early manuscripts.
>
> Another tribe in Ptolemy's map were the Brigantes of South Wexford of whom
> O'Rahilly states "it is hardly possible to disassociate [them] from the
> Brigantes of Britain."
>
> In the northeast of Ireland there seems to be some agreement that the
> Robogdii of Ptolemy's map can be equated with the Dal Riata and the
> Voluntii
> represent the Ulaidh (Dal Fiatach) of Ireland, but there is nothing to
> connect
> either of these to tribes elsewhere in England or Gaul.
>
> This would seem to be the same story often repeated by archeologists and
> historians, of a warrior elite class settling in another territory and
> imposing
> themselves on the local inhabitants. It's the same model often proposed
> for
> the settlement of the Irish Dal Riata in Scotland where archeologists have
> found little or no evidence of a mass invasion circa 500 A.D. to support
> the
> origin legend of the Senchus Fer nAlban.
>
> O'Rahilly saw no evidence of any tribe name in Ptolemy's map of Ireland
> that could be equated with the Connachta or Ui Neill. At that date (2nd
> century A.D) historians tell us they should have been settled in either
> the
> midlands (O'Rahilly) or Connacht (Byrnes). Yet none of the tribal names
> in either
> area bear any resemblance to Dal Cuinn or Siol Cuinn, the original tribe
> name
> of what would later become the Connachta and Ui Neill. And these are the
> tribes in Ireland where R1b1c7 is strongly concentrated. One tribe name
> O'Rahilly omitted entirely from his discussion of Ptolemy's map are the
> Vennicnii of
> northwest Ireland, where in legendary Irish history we find three sons of
> Nial carving out territories for themselves circa 400 A.D. Some have
> tried to
> connect the Vennicnii of NW Ireland with the Venicones of SE Scotland.
> Some
> serious scholars have seen the root of the Venicone tribe name as Conn or
> Cuinn (genitive form of Cu or hound) and Venn as some form related to the
> Irish
> Feni, resulting in a tribe name something like the tribe or people of the
> hounds. But there is no agreement that the Venicnii in Ireland can be
> equated
> with the Venicones of Scotland. Most seem to dismiss the possibility out
> of
> hand.
>
> Of course we also don't know how complete the list of tribes in
> Ptolemy's
> map are (possibly not very) or how accurately the tribe names were
> transmitted in the original Greek of the manuscript. O'Rahilly believes
> the
> information in the map originally came from Pythias of Massalia in 325
> B.C., the only
> known Greek geographer known to have visited the Pretanic Isles prior to
> Ptolemy's time. That date would seem too early for the sons of Nial in
> NW
> Ireland. Unless Irish historians are wrong about where the Dal Cuinn
> originated in
> Ireland.
>
> An easily accessible version of Ptolemy's map can be found on the
> Ireland's History in Maps site:
>
> _http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~irlkik/ihm/ire150.htm_<http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/%7Eirlkik/ihm/ire150.htm_>;
> (http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~irlkik/ihm/ire150.htm<http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/%7Eirlkik/ihm/ire150.htm>;
> )
>
> There are a few mistakes in this rendition though. Concani shown in the
> SE
> should be Gangani; and the name Domnainn is not a tribe name but a city
> name.
>
> I have to wonder why of all the names in Ptolemy's map, the one tribe name
> O'Rahilly declined to discuss or even mention were the Vennicnii of NW
> Ireland. It has occurred to me that perhaps the version of the map he
> consulted did
> not contain this tribe name. But every source I've seen on the internet
> does mention the name. It's an odd omission (to my eyes anyway) since
> the name
> Vennicni would seem to be Q-Celtic and the whole thrust of O'Rahilly's
> theories about the late arriving goidels is based on the fact that they
> were
> Q-Celtic rather than Brythonic.
>
>
> John
>
>
>
>
>
>
> **************Planning your summer road trip? Check out AOL Travel Guides.
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