DNA-R1B1C7-L Archives

Archiver > DNA-R1B1C7 > 2008-04 > 1207319763


From: "Paul Conroy" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA-R1B1C7] R1b1b2e??
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2008 10:36:03 -0400
References: <c77.2590a5e2.3526e20b@aol.com>
In-Reply-To: <c77.2590a5e2.3526e20b@aol.com>


John,

Remember that terms like Celtic and Germanic are cultural. The evolution of
the Germanic language is problematic - I remember reading years ago, using
some modeling technique, that most likely the area we know as Germany today
was inhabited by Balto-Slavic speakers, who were conquered from the South by
Celtic speakers - this is why the language has a Balto-Slavic substratum,
with much of the vocab being similar to Celtic.

BTW, the Germans call themselves "Deutsche", which itself is derived from
the Celtic word for "people", Teuta or Tuath.

Ireland of course has had no major immigration for millenia, over 80% of its
people are descended from original settlers.

The only well documented continental migration to Ireland was that of the
Belgic tribe Menapii, to the Wexford area - extreme South East of the
country - and the founding of their principal town Menapia, which later
became Wexford town. The Belgae of course may have been speaking a Celtic or
Germanic dialect - the latter according to Oppenheimer. It is interesting in
light of Oppenheimer's theory of the supposed fourth major branch of the
Germanic language - Old English, and its derivatives - that up till the mid
1800's the people of South East Wexford, spoke a dialect called Yola, a
Germano-English dialect, which may have been introduced by the Belgae,
Vikings or Normans, or a combination of them all:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yola_language

Cheers,
Paul




On Thu, Apr 3, 2008 at 9:44 PM, <> wrote:

>
> In a message dated 4/3/2008 11:27:30 A.M. Central Standard Time,
> writes:
>
> A new Y Chromosome Consortium tree has just been published, updating the
> > one > we have been using since 2002 and incorporating a number of new
> SNPs,
> > which > required some restructuring and extensive re-naming of the old
> tree. What
> > was R1b1c7 on the old tree is R1b1b2e on the new tree. In a situation
> > analogous to the one we run into when counties are subdivided, we have
>
>
>
> I don't really see anything new in the Hammer study for M269. Just a
> change
> in nomenclature. And unfortunately as has been stated by others they did
> not know about the new SNP S116 or rs34276300. This is supposed to
> divide new
> R1b1b2 (old R1b1c) into two large groups, with M222 and S28 in one and
> S21 in
> another.
>
> New Hammer Study
>
> M269
> R1b1b2* [old R1b1c]
> M37 R1b1ba [rare] [old R1b1c1]
> M65 R1b1b2b [rare] [old R1b1c2]
> M153 R1b1b2c [old R1b1c4]
> SRY2627 (M167) R1b1b2d [old R1b1c6]
> M222 = USP9Y+3636 R1b1b2e [old R1b1c7]
> P66 R1b1b2f [rare] [old R1b1c8]
> U106 [old R1b1c9 or S21)
> R1b1b2g*
> U198 [S29] R1b1b2g1 [old R1b1c9b]
> P107 [S26?]R1b1b2g2 private SNP in R1b1c9 [old R1b1c9a?]
> U152 [S28] [old R1b1c10]
> R1b1b2h*
> M126 R1b1b2h1 [rare] [old R1b1c3]
> M160 R1b1b2h2 [rare] [old R1b1c5]
>
> David Faux has stated several times he believes some of the rare SNPs
> listed
> in the group are really private SNPs and should be omitted anyway. If
> you
> omit most of the ones marked rare above by David Faux the following SNP
> table
> would result.
>
>
> M269
> R1b1b2* [old R1b1c*]
> M153 R1b1b2c [old R1b1c4]
> SRY2627 (M167) R1b1b2d [old R1b1c6]
> M222 = USP9Y+3636 R1b1b2e [old R1b1c7]
> U106 [old R1b1c9 or S21)
> R1b1b2g*
> U198 [S29] R1b1b2g1 [old R1b1c9b]
> P107 [S26?]R1b1b2g2 private SNP in R1b1c9 [old R1b1c9a?]
> U152 [S28] [old R1b1c10]
>
> Or in other words we would have (in Ysearch parlance)
>
> R1b1c* M269
> R1b1c4 M153 [Spain]
> R1b1c6 M167 [Spain]
> R1b1c7 M222 [Ireland, Scotland]
> R1b1c9 [and R1b1c9a,b] S21 [40% of DNA in Netherlands, includes Frisian
> DNA,
> most common R1b1c DNA - 25%]]
> R1b1c10 S28 [second most common R1b1c DNA, western Europe, 10%]
>
> Faux speculates R1b1c10 or S28 arose in the areas associated with La Tene
> Celts.
>
>
> I think it's interesting R1b1c7 and S28 are put in the same group by S116
> since both represent Celtic populations, as opposed to S21 which is highly
> Germanic. I can remember reading years ago theories by historians that
> the
> Germanic and Celtic tribes were basically one and the same but underwent a
> linguistic and cultural division at some point. I don't know if this
> theory is
> still held by historians or linguists or if it has any validity at all.
>
> You see both S21 and S28 all over Europe, England, Scotland, and even
> Ireland according to David Faux.
>
> S21, is very common, approximately 25% of M269-carrying Western European
> males are in this group. The marker has been observed in males from many
> parts
> of Europe: Norway, Italy, Germany, England, Ireland, Scotland and Wales.
> Around
> 40% of men in Northern Holland carry the marker S21 that defines a
> subgroup
> in which there are two additional informative SNPs, S26 and S29 (see map
> popup). The "Frisian" group of R1b is S21+, as are many other subgroups.
>
> S28 is the second most common subtype of R1b. Just under 10% of the
> M269-carrying Western European males are in this group. It has been
> observed in
> Greece, Italy, Switzerland, Germany, France, Poland, Norway and the
> Netherlands.
> It is also present in Scotland, Wales and England.
>
> None of this really tells me what I want to know though: where did M222+
> originate? In Ireland or in Scotland or on the continent?
>
>
> John
>
>
>
>
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