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Archiver > DNA-R1B1C7 > 2008-04 > 1207273483


From:
Subject: Re: [DNA-R1B1C7] R1b1b2e??
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 21:44:43 EDT



In a message dated 4/3/2008 11:27:30 A.M. Central Standard Time,
writes:

A new Y Chromosome Consortium tree has just been published, updating the
> one > we have been using since 2002 and incorporating a number of new
SNPs,
> which > required some restructuring and extensive re-naming of the old
tree. What
> was R1b1c7 on the old tree is R1b1b2e on the new tree. In a situation
> analogous to the one we run into when counties are subdivided, we have



I don't really see anything new in the Hammer study for M269. Just a change
in nomenclature. And unfortunately as has been stated by others they did
not know about the new SNP S116 or rs34276300. This is supposed to divide new
R1b1b2 (old R1b1c) into two large groups, with M222 and S28 in one and S21 in
another.

New Hammer Study

M269
R1b1b2* [old R1b1c]
M37 R1b1ba [rare] [old R1b1c1]
M65 R1b1b2b [rare] [old R1b1c2]
M153 R1b1b2c [old R1b1c4]
SRY2627 (M167) R1b1b2d [old R1b1c6]
M222 = USP9Y+3636 R1b1b2e [old R1b1c7]
P66 R1b1b2f [rare] [old R1b1c8]
U106 [old R1b1c9 or S21)
R1b1b2g*
U198 [S29] R1b1b2g1 [old R1b1c9b]
P107 [S26?]R1b1b2g2 private SNP in R1b1c9 [old R1b1c9a?]
U152 [S28] [old R1b1c10]
R1b1b2h*
M126 R1b1b2h1 [rare] [old R1b1c3]
M160 R1b1b2h2 [rare] [old R1b1c5]

David Faux has stated several times he believes some of the rare SNPs listed
in the group are really private SNPs and should be omitted anyway. If you
omit most of the ones marked rare above by David Faux the following SNP table
would result.


M269
R1b1b2* [old R1b1c*]
M153 R1b1b2c [old R1b1c4]
SRY2627 (M167) R1b1b2d [old R1b1c6]
M222 = USP9Y+3636 R1b1b2e [old R1b1c7]
U106 [old R1b1c9 or S21)
R1b1b2g*
U198 [S29] R1b1b2g1 [old R1b1c9b]
P107 [S26?]R1b1b2g2 private SNP in R1b1c9 [old R1b1c9a?]
U152 [S28] [old R1b1c10]

Or in other words we would have (in Ysearch parlance)

R1b1c* M269
R1b1c4 M153 [Spain]
R1b1c6 M167 [Spain]
R1b1c7 M222 [Ireland, Scotland]
R1b1c9 [and R1b1c9a,b] S21 [40% of DNA in Netherlands, includes Frisian DNA,
most common R1b1c DNA - 25%]]
R1b1c10 S28 [second most common R1b1c DNA, western Europe, 10%]

Faux speculates R1b1c10 or S28 arose in the areas associated with La Tene
Celts.


I think it's interesting R1b1c7 and S28 are put in the same group by S116
since both represent Celtic populations, as opposed to S21 which is highly
Germanic. I can remember reading years ago theories by historians that the
Germanic and Celtic tribes were basically one and the same but underwent a
linguistic and cultural division at some point. I don't know if this theory is
still held by historians or linguists or if it has any validity at all.

You see both S21 and S28 all over Europe, England, Scotland, and even
Ireland according to David Faux.

S21, is very common, approximately 25% of M269-carrying Western European
males are in this group. The marker has been observed in males from many parts
of Europe: Norway, Italy, Germany, England, Ireland, Scotland and Wales. Around
40% of men in Northern Holland carry the marker S21 that defines a subgroup
in which there are two additional informative SNPs, S26 and S29 (see map
popup). The “Frisian” group of R1b is S21+, as are many other subgroups.

S28 is the second most common subtype of R1b. Just under 10% of the
M269-carrying Western European males are in this group. It has been observed in
Greece, Italy, Switzerland, Germany, France, Poland, Norway and the Netherlands.
It is also present in Scotland, Wales and England.

None of this really tells me what I want to know though: where did M222+
originate? In Ireland or in Scotland or on the continent?


John




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