DNA-R1B1C7-L Archives
Archiver > DNA-R1B1C7 > 2008-03 > 1206330291
From: "David Wilson" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA-R1B1C7] Interesting developments -- new SNP S116
Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2008 20:44:51 -0700
References: <cb9.2a2e9768.3518669c@aol.com>
In-Reply-To: <cb9.2a2e9768.3518669c@aol.com>
S116 is the name given by EthnoAncestry to the SNP that I mentioned earlier
on this list under the identifying label rs34276300.
At this point there is no need for any R1b1c7 individual to order this test.
We have one known M222+ individual who is also positive for what we may now
call S116, and I have ordered the SNP for myself just to make sure that the
derived status in the other individual was not a testing error or fluke of
interpretation. If we are both positive for S116, then it is a foregone
conclusion that every R1b1c7 individual will be positive for the SNP. I
won't dissuade anyone from testing if they really want to, but I don't think
the cost of the test needs to be borne to prove anything new.
If S116 does what many of us think it does, it could indeed help us
understand the early history of R1b1c7. I don't think it will point to a
specific region of Europe as a point of origin, but it may have the power to
exclude some models of cultural origin (Iberia, to use a provocative
example). We'll just have to wait and see.
I want to make it clear for those who don't closely follow developments in
the complex branching structure of the Y-DNA tree that this SNP does NOT say
that R1b1c7 is part of R1b1c10, or vice versa. It appears that this SNP will
divide what we now think of as the huge R1b1c haplogroup into two large
though probably unequal divisions, with some known subhaplogroups going with
the new branch and other haplogroups (R1b1c9, for example) staying in the
ancestral branch. Branch names will change dramatically.
This is, as John suggested, a big deal. We already know that R1b1c10
constitutes about 15 percent of R1b1c, and R1b1c7 constitutes maybe one or
two percent. Given the odds that there at least a few individuals
representing the immediate ancestral populations for both R1b1c7 and
R1b1c10, we could be looking at a SNP that includes at least 20-25 percent
of the entire R1b1c population. I suspect that it is going to be somewhat
larger than that, and that a lot of distinctive Irish and Scots clusters
(South Irish, Irish Type III, Scots R1b, for example) will be found to
belong to this new branch of the tree.
These are exciting times. The potential of the multi-SNP testing services
like 23andMe and deCODEme to identify further refinements in the structure
of the tree is quite encouraging.
David Wilson
-----Original Message-----
From:
[mailto:] On Behalf Of
Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2008 7:06 PM
To:
Subject: [DNA-R1B1C7] Interesting developments
The following was part of an email sent out by Ethnoancestry.
EthnoAncestry is pleased to announce the release of an exciting new
> > Y chromosome SNP marker, S116, which appears to divide the R1b
> > group. As yet, there are very few genotypes for this marker, which
> > is found in the Illumina 1M panel (as used by deCODEme).
However, it appears that the M222 and S28 groups are united in a
> > new subgroup of R1b, while the S21 group is not within this clade
> > defined by S116. This has very interesting implications for the
> > deep origins of the Irish. It will be fascinating to see how many
> > and which R1b1c* chromosomes are in this group and which are not.
It's getting a lot of play on the GEN-DNA list but not here so far.
I did a little poking around and it seems S28 is R1b1c10 on Ysearch. A
distribution map shows it spread throughout Europe, from Italy to England,
very heavy in southern Germany, very light or nonexistent in Ireland
(basically the same thing as the list of R1b1c10 on Ysearch). Lots of
matches in Germany.
_http://bj1-2.electronicbox.net//S28/S28maptodate.htm_
(http://bj1-2.electronicbox.net//S28/S28maptodate.htm)
Dr. Faux believes S28 is tied in with the Le Tene and Hallstadt Celtic
cultures.
Dr. Faux also states "this is big, really big."
For R1b1c7, my question would be: "Could this discovery help us identify
where M222+ first originated? And perhaps when? If R1b1c7 split from
R1b1c10 I can't see it happening in Ireland (where are the haplotypes?).
We seem to think R1b1c7 was relatively recently in genetic terms.
Secondarily, is there any need for M222+ individuals to get tested for this
new SNP? What about people who haven't tested for M222 yet? Would they
need to get tested for both?
This reminds me of the excitement caused when David Wilson first tested
positive for M222+.
Here's a link to a site with lots of S28 info.
_http://cerbere.ca/S28/_ (http://cerbere.ca/S28/)
John
**************Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL
Home.
(http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15?ncid=aolhom0
0030000000001)
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