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Archiver > DNA-R1B1C7 > 2008-03 > 1205714700


From: "David Wilson" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA-R1B1C7] DYF399X modals
Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2008 17:45:00 -0700
References: <e0d2d2870803161254i6c3d58d4ma9bc7236e5b23531@mail.gmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <e0d2d2870803161254i6c3d58d4ma9bc7236e5b23531@mail.gmail.com>


I'm 22t-25c-27.1t, just like one of David's Group 5 members.

I think it is possible that 399X may be of some use in separating lineages
in a complicated family, but I'm not sure it will help much in defining
clusters of families or subgroups of R1b1c7. I view the marker somewhat the
same way I look at CDYa and b, the fast mutators from FTDNA's third panel.

I have not tried to compile any modal values for this marker in R1b1c7
because there simply aren't that many tests to compile. David's Ewing
exemplars, if included, would perhaps skew the calculations because there
are so many from one family.

An earlier post pointed out Y-match at DNA-FP and John McEwan's somewhat
dated R1b-SNP page; these are the only sources I know, beyond what may have
been posted on an ad hoc basis on the GENEALOGY-DNA list.

David Wilson





-----Original Message-----
From:
[mailto:] On Behalf Of David Ewing
Sent: Sunday, March 16, 2008 12:55 PM
To:
Subject: Re: [DNA-R1B1C7] DYF399X modals

Oops. I should have known better than to try and send a formatted table to
the list. Here is a version I hope will be more readable:

Group ID
Modal 21t 25/26c 27.1t
1 CA 21t 26c 27.1t
1 WC3 21t 25c 27.1t
1 FI 21t 24c 24t
1 DC2 21t 26c 26.1t
1 MT 21t 26c 27.1t
3 SR 22t 27c 27.1t
3 DN 21t 24c 25.1t
3 HW 21t 26c 25.1t
4 GW 21t 25c 27.1t
4 RB 21t 25c 27.1t
4 RD 21t 25c 28.1t
5 JM2 21t 26c 27.1t
5 RC 21t 26c 27.1t
5 JL 22t 26c 27.1t
5 TG 22t 25c 27.1t
7 SC 21t 25c 27.1t
7 DL2 21t 25c 27.1t

The men in our project are divided into "Groups." Group 1 and Group 5 are
men who are genetically reasonably close relatives of the others in the
project, but do not know their conventional genealogic connection with the
others. Group 5 differs from Group 1 in that all men in Group 5 have DYS 391
= 10, rather than 11 (the R1b1c7 modal at this marker). Groups 3, 4 and 7
are conventional kindreds. The common ancestors of Groups 3 & 4 were born in
the mid-seventeenth century and lived near one another in Donegal; the
common ancestor of Group 7 was born ca. 1720-25, probably in Pennsylvania.
Some Ewings have speculated on conventional grounds that there is a close
relationship between Group 7 and Group 4 (the immigrant ancestor of Group 7
is not known, but he may have been the same man as the ancestor of Group 4);
these DYF399X results would appear to lend some support to this.

I have been speculating that perhaps a value of 25c at the middle DYF399X
marker may be a branch-specific marker for Group 4 (&7), so that WC3 in
Group 1 might want to look among the ancestors of Group 4 for his own line.
If this is true, then TG's 25c result must be due to a parallel
mutation--not much of a stretch, given how quickly this marker is thought to
mutate.

So, again, what are the R1b1c7 modals for DYF399X?

David Ewing

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