DNA-R1B1C7-L ArchivesArchiver > DNA-R1B1C7 > 2008-03 > 1205246866
Subject: Re: [DNA-R1B1C7] Ui Neill Modals
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2008 10:47:46 EDT
In a message dated 3/11/2008 3:38:57 A.M. Central Standard Time,
Even though we cannot identify Byrne Rib1c7s by clan origins, you might
consider including our cluster modal BJY9J on your chart. It is only one mutation
away from the R1b1c7 modal--a 40 at CDYb instead of the latter's 39.
Paul, I added your O Byrne modal to the page. I just listed it under
Connachta for the time being, which is probably accurate. I would have added more
modals but in a lot of cases we only have a few representative surnames, not
really enough for a modal. And since so many of these surnames have multiple
origins how do we know which family is represented by the DNA? I have some
Donnelly DNA which is probably Cenel Eoghain but recently learned the same
surname also appears in Galway.
Sometimes modals don't tell the whole story anyway. There is some Bradley
DNA in the Trinity file which falls into two groups, both R1b1c7. Just
looking at a modal ignores this completely. I think they're both related though.
You could probably make a modal for each group. You would also never guess
by looking at modals that the Dohertys and McLaughlins share some distinctive
markers, or at least a portion of them do.
I wanted to post these modals though to show how solidly R1b1c7 the Ui Neill
really are (and also the Connachta). I wish there were large surname
projects for the McDermotts, O'Rourkes, McGoverns, O'Reillys, O'Connors and other
Connachta clans. There are a lot of McGovern samples but I didn't see a modal
posted anywhere on their site. I didn't take the time to come up with one
myself. I also wish there were a lot more O'Donnell 37 marker samples. The
McGovern site also has a DNA sample for Philip O'Rourke, titular head of the
Within the Cenel Eoghain, we have two large DNA projects (McLaughlins and O
Cathains). The O Cathains are part of Barra McCain's site - he actually went
to Ireland and took DNA samples from Londonderry Co., homeland of the O
Cathains. They have a distinctive modal and match the McHenrys, said to split
off from the O Cathain royal line in about 1425 (O Clery). The O Cathains are
(besides the O'Neills) the closest relatives to the McLaughlins in Ireland.
One possibly closer relative are the Clan Duibh Enaigh, if the surname
Devenny came from that stock. We have one Devanny sample which is an exact match
to the McLaughlin modal.
I see nothing in any of these modals that could help distinguish between
Cenel Conaill, Cenel Eoghain, or Connachta. I did notice a lot of the McGoverns
tended to be 13-25-14-10 but that might disappear in a modal. The southern
Ui Neill (at least to me) remain a mystery. Where's all the Ui Maine of
Tethbha DNA? (O Kearney or Fox). What happened to the O Mailsechlainns of Meath
(Clann Cholman)? We know they're now McLoughlins but which group? I've seen
one Geoghegan DNA sample on Sorenson that's R1b1c7 (Cenel Fiachach mac
Neill) and one Conlan sample from Westmeath that's R1b1c7 (possibly Cenél Láegaire
- O Connellan). Plus we've got Pat Conroy and some Dunnes from Offaly/Leix
that are R1b1c7. Nothing like the numbers we're seeing in Connacht and the
What about the Ui Maine of Galway? Their earliest pedigree makes them
descend from the same line as the Ui Neill and Connachta but not from the Three
Collas (Rawlinson B.502). This may be just another fudged Irish pedigree.
O'Rahilly thought they were really Lagin.
The biggest mystery of all are the O'Neills of Ulster, by pedigree Cenel
Eoghain and the closest kin to the McLaughlins of Tirconnell - but mostly non
R1b1c7. The riddle of the O'Neills is one that has captivated me for almost
twenty years now.
We also have a huge mass of R1b1c7 in Ireland with a broad range of
surnames which can't be identified in terms of a certain tribe. We really only
know the surnames of the chieftains in Ireland and the tribes to which they
belonged. They're the ones who appear in the annals, in the pedigree collections
and in the Topographical Poems. There are 46 principal Irish surnames
listed in the Inishowen Peninsula of Donegal in 1659. Of these only about 12 can
be identified as belonging to one of the two tribes in the territory, the
Cenel Eoghain and the Cenel Conaill. The same thing occurs throughout Ireland.
That's why in trying to establish R1b1c7 patterns I tend to concentrate on
the chieftains. At least they're a known quantity. Now and then McLysaght
mentions a family not named in these sources as Cenel Eoghain like the Slavens
and McGurkes. I tend to trust this as well.
I also see nothing in DNA that might distinguish between Scottish and Irish
As I'm sure everyone knows, the Connachta are not said to descend from Nial.
Their tribe name is Dal Cuinn or Connachta and they supposedly descended
according to the genealogical scheme from brothers of Nial by a different
mother (Mong Fionn). Nial's mother was Cairenn, thought to be a British slave
captured in a raid by his father, Eochaidh Mughmedhoin. No one really believes
the story of brothers of Nial including O'Rahilly, who says Mong Fionn was
nothing but a mythological figure (and if you read the stories about her you'd
probably agree). Scholars often mention the alarming number of sons credited
to Nial and believe at least some of them were faked. But I think it's
interesting that the Irish scribes did not try and connect the Connachta to Nial.
If they had been descended from Nial, they surely would have advanced that
claim. That's really the only problem I had with the Trinity study and
conclusions. They for some unknown reason, despite having Katherine Simms (an
excellent Irish historian) as an advisor, lumped the two together as Ui Neill or
descendants of Nial. To this day they insist on yakking about all the
R1b1c7 descendants of Nial when they should know better.
The Doherty DNA study might be instructive for us all. They have some non
R1b1c7 Dohertys from Donegal, including several I and R1a haplogroups - plus
a block of non R1b1c7 but R1b DNA. The latter might represent Dohertys from
different stock in the south of Ireland. The I haplogroups could represent
either Norse or more likely indigenous stock in Donegal; R1a is probably
Norse. The R1b1c7 Dohertys though are remarkably similar - almost all have one
distinctive marker not shared by any of the other clans in the region - YCAIIb
= 22. So you can't rule out non matching DNA as part of a given family or
tribe. If an NPE did occur in this region it would be difficult to spot
among so many R1b1c7. There seem to be even larger breaks in DNA in surnames
elsewhere in Ireland (Trinity study). The Maguinness clan in the northeast are
majority I1c haplogroup (old designation), but have a substantial complement
of what looks like R1b1c7. According to Trinity, the O'Sullivans in the
south also show evidence of multiple founders.
There's one last question I have about R1b1c7 in Ireland. Are the Ui
Neill and Connachta the only ones with this DNA? Are there any tribes in Ireland
NOT said to be Ui Neill or Connachta who test R1b1c7? I'm not talking about
interlopers scattered thinly and randomly across surnames in other parts of
Ireland than Connacht or NW Ulster. Even a couple of O'Sullivans and
McCarthys in the Trinity study are R1b1c7. But entire clans who are a majority
R1b1c7 as we see in Connacht and the NW. I haven't found one yet. But who
knows? I can't explain R1b1c7 in the Maguinness surname. Unless there were
somehow multiple origins of the surname we know nothing about. One thing I think
we can show is the Ui Neill and Connachta themselves are majority R1b1c7. At
least the chieftains appear to be. Those are the recognizable names.
Everything else is a muddle.
If anyone has any thoughts or differing opinions on any of the above don't
hesitate to pipe up. This is just my own opinion on R1b1c7 in Ireland.
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