DNA-R1B1C7-L Archives

From:
Subject: Re: [DNA-R1B1C7] Subclades of R1b1c7
Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2008 18:00:42 EST

Would there be any more information on the Dunbar in Dublin?


In a message dated 3/5/2008 3:52:44 P.M. Central Standard Time,
writes:

In a message dated 3/5/2008 3:55:08 A.M. Central Standard Time,
writes:

John pointed out that the four R1b1c7 Burns I believe are a Sligo subclade
have DYS390=24 and DYS460=12 or higher (modal values are 25 and 11 for
those
markers). I checked the R1b1c7 site for others, but only four others match
those Burns values and none are Sligo. There are four others, a Dunbar
(Dublin;), Fegusson (Perthshire), Doherty (Donegal), and a McGill
(Scotland).
Paul Burns

I tried the same thing in Ysearch.

Found your three Burns samples, plus:

2KUSF Show Carroll Unknown
865R7 O'Dowd Clooneycolgan, Ireland
9P3DP Megaw Ireland
HCEB6 Ferguson Logierait, Perthshire, Scotland
FW46N Show Fournier Marans, Charente-Maritime, France
VUJW4 Griffin South Carolina, USA
YVRSD Neal Unknown

And a few others.

I thought the O'Dowd sample was interesting (Connachta, Ui Fiachrach).
MacLysaght also places them in Sligo. He also places a minor sept of
O'Carroll
in Leitrim. For Megaw, he lists Mac Caw, a Cavan surname.

I don't know what others think of pattern matching. In some cases I'm
sure it's random convergence. In other cases it might be a family thing.
Or
it could go beyond just one family to several related families.

This first came to my attention as co-coordinator of the McLaughlin surname
project. We began finding a lot of McLaughlins with several unusual marker
values in R1b1c7. Out of about 20 matches we had five or six definite
identifications of locality - all came from Donegal, Tyrone or L'Derry, the
traditional catchment area of the MacLochlainn of Tirconnell sept of
ireland.

The McLaughlin unusual marker values are:

DYS 447 = 24 (the modal is 25)
DYS 576 = 17 (the modal is 18)
DYS 458 = 18 (the modal is 17)

There are also some differences at CDYab but I mostly disregard this marker
as "flaky" per John McEwen.

When searched against the Ysearch database for these specific, non modal
R1b1c7 markers almost nothing matches - except O'Dohertys.

I do not think this is a coincidence. The O'Dohertys and McLaughlins
shared
the same territory in Donegal (Inishowen peninsula) for over 700 years.

Where this gets a little interesting is that while we have a solid block of
McLaughins with these unique markers, only some of the O'Dohertys exhibit
the
same markers. And only one shares exactly the same marker pattern.
They're
all fast moving markers except for DYS 447. We also have a lot of
unidentifiable R1b1c7 McLaughlins that do not have these same markers.
SInce none of
them know where their ancestors came from we don't either. We can't place
them in Donegal without some kind of definite ID. But it's certainly
possible
we could have some Donegal Mclaughlins without these marker values. The
O'Dohertys of Donegal also have a very strong unique marker of their own
(DYS
YCAIIb = 22).

The O'Dohertys also have several non R1b1c7 DNA samples from Donegal,
mostly I and R1a haplogroups. They also have a group of R1b but not R1b1c7
samples that may come from elsewhere in Ireland (unrelated).

What we're seeing then is a DNA pattern shared by two distinct families
from exactly the same geographical area. And I mean the same area. In
parts
of the Inishowen peninsula all you see are Dohertys or McLaughlins. But
not
every member of both families has the exact pattern. Some have just parts
of it. The pattern also shows up in a few other DNA samples linked to
Donegal
(a Gallagher, an O'Boyle, a Granahan, a Devenny).

For the time being, I'm inclined to think that matches to the pattern
elsewhere in Ireland (there aren't many) or in Scotland (there aren't many)
are
probably random convergence since we have no geographical basis for
assuming
any kind of shared descent. But when we find the same pattern occurring in
families from the same exact geographical area then I think we should pay
attention.

This is particularly true in Ireland where the same families held the same
traditional territories for hundreds if not thousands of years. While they
didn't own their land in the feudal sense, they had clan rights to land,
jealously guarded and defended. There is an interesting entry in the 1601
State
Papers describing O'Doherty, the lord of Inishowen, who controlled the
entire
peninsula at that date and had since the early 1400s. The entry mentions
O'Doherty's military counselors, some of whom are of equal or greater
nobility
than O'Doherty himself and are "greater in power and wealth than many of
the
others." The two referred to in the entry are the Muinter Brollaghan
(Bradley)
and the Clan Laughlin (McLaughlin). The McLaughlins were herenaghs of
church lands in Derry and in several other places in Inishowen. The
O'Brollaghans were noted clerics associated with the church of Columcille
at Derry. In
their early years the McLaughlins were so firmly associated with the city
of
Derry they are even referred to as MacLochlainn of Derry. Their hold on
this
area dates to at least the time of Domhnall MacLochlainn, the King King of
Ireland, who died 1166 A.D. It's safe to speculate that all of the
McLaughlins
descended from this sept lived in the same exact territory and nowhere else
until the disruptions caused by the English in the late 1500s. Why would
they go anywhere else? This is where their landholdings were; this is the
area
in which they held status as a privileged sept (herenaghs). Anywhere else
they would be broken clansmen.

This part of Ireland was never overrun or conquered by an outside force,
although some Viking blood can be expected. Even the Normans never
conquered
Donegal or affected lasting settlements, beyond a 100 year occupation of
Inishowen from about 1200-1300 A.D. after which they withdrew completely.
There
was plenty of political upheaval but it always involved one native sept
rising
to power in the ashes of another. O'Donnells replacing O'Canannains;
O'Dohertys replacing McLaughlins. The only real outside influence were the

MacSweeney gallowglass from Scotland who replaced the O'Breslins as Lords
of Fanad
circa 1300 A.D.

This was a stable area for DNA which is something I don't think can be said
for most of Scotland.


John










**************It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms, and advice on AOL Money &
Finance. (http://money.aol.com/tax?NCID=aolprf00030000000001)

-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and
the body of the message





**************It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms, and advice on AOL Money &
Finance. (http://money.aol.com/tax?NCID=aolprf00030000000001)

This thread:

• [DNA-R1B1C7] Subclades of R1b1c7 by
  • Re: [DNA-R1B1C7] Subclades of R1b1c7 by

  • Re: [DNA-R1B1C7] Subclades of R1b1c7 by