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Archiver > DNA-R1B1C7 > 2008-03 > 1204658128


From: "Paul Conroy" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA-R1B1C7] Sub-clades of R1b1c7
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2008 14:15:28 -0500
References: <cad.29da8753.34fde867@aol.com>
In-Reply-To: <cad.29da8753.34fde867@aol.com>


John,

Don't know about sub-clades - but I would like to see some sort of
geographic distribution of people - like me - who have near modal values for
R1b1c7, except a DYS 391 = 10, rather than the more usual 11.

At the basic 12-markers, I am GD=1 away from the bulk of the O'Dohertys,
O'Reillys, Cowans and many more, due to this marker.

So is their a geographic split between those that have a 10 value, versus an
11 value??

Cheers,
Paul

On Mon, Mar 3, 2008 at 6:48 PM, <> wrote:

> I have a question for any DNA experts who may happen to read this.
>
> Why have we been unable to find any markers that reliably divide R1b1c7
> into
> recognizable sub-clades?
>
> In Ireland it appears that R1b1c7 is mostly but not entirely confined to
> descendants of the Dal Cuinn or Connachta (which includes the Ui Neill or
> descendants of Nial 'of the Nine Hostages'). So far most of the families
> linked by
> traditional Irish pedigrees to this stock (with one notable exception -
> the
> O'Neills) appear to be solidly R1b1c7. This includes most of the
> surnames
> listed by Trinity in their "Nial" study and others not mentioned by
> Trinity.
> These families or septs are recognizable units going back into the 6th
> and 7th
> centuries A.D. Some of the major chieftains and kings are traceable in
> the
> annals generation after generation for some 1,000 years. The theory that
> the
> Dal Cuinn or Connachta represent most if not all of R1b1c7 in Ireland is
> also bolstered by the Trinity study which found the DNA nearly absent
> from much
> of Ireland, particularly in the south but also much lighter even non
> existent
> in native Irish surnames in much of eastern Ulster. What this tells us
> is
> the DNA is concentrated in territories controlled by the Dal Cuinn or Ui
> Neill
> in Ireland, which boils down to much of Connacht, Donegal, Tyrone and
> Londonderry counties.
>
> In contrast, we know nothing about the history of R1b1c7 in Scotland and
> England except that it's present there in lesser numbers and no one really
> knows beyond wild speculation how this came to be.
>
> In terms of DNA then we have tribes and family units in Ireland that
> split
> apart as early as 400-500 AD. , or some 1,500 years ago. Yet all anyone
> can
> find in the markers are some individual family mutation patterns.
> Examples
> have been posted to this list before but some of the surnames with highly
> identifiable marker patterns are the O'Dohertys, McLaughlins,
> O'Gallaghers,
> Ewings and Duncans. Yet there seems to be nothing in DNA that further
> distinguishes between them. For example, we see nothing that really
> distinguishes
> between Cenel Conaill and Cenel Eoghain in Ireland; or between the
> Connachta
> clans in the west. Another example might be the southern UI Neill but
> samples
> for these are so scarce it's possible their supposed descent from sons of
> Nial
> was a genealogical fiction. We also see nothing that helps distinguish
> between Irish and Scottish R1b1c7 (not to mention English).
>
> Why is this? Does this say something about the age of R1b1c7? Is 1,500
> to 2,000 years not enough time for identifiable sub-clades in terms of
> marker
> patterns to emerge from a given haplogroup or SNP? Is there anything to
> compare this situation to in the DNA literature? Has anyone studied a
> broad but
> very specific tribe over 2,000 years to see what marker patterns result
> over
> that time period? Are we expecting too much from the DNA markers we have
> now? Would other markers help? Or is what we have now sufficient but we
> just
> don't know how to interpret it correctly?
>
> Looking at raw GDs in R1b1c7 doesn't seem to be getting us anywhere.
> Most
> R1b1c7 clusters tightly against the modal in both Ireland and Scotland.
> Looking for specific marker patterns also does not seem to be getting us
> anywhere except in the case of specific families which stand out against
> the
> background clutter.
>
>
> John
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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