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Subject: [DNA-R1B1C7] Sub-clades of R1b1c7
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 18:48:55 EST


I have a question for any DNA experts who may happen to read this.

Why have we been unable to find any markers that reliably divide R1b1c7 into
recognizable sub-clades?

In Ireland it appears that R1b1c7 is mostly but not entirely confined to
descendants of the Dal Cuinn or Connachta (which includes the Ui Neill or
descendants of Nial 'of the Nine Hostages'). So far most of the families linked by
traditional Irish pedigrees to this stock (with one notable exception - the
O'Neills) appear to be solidly R1b1c7. This includes most of the surnames
listed by Trinity in their "Nial" study and others not mentioned by Trinity.
These families or septs are recognizable units going back into the 6th and 7th
centuries A.D. Some of the major chieftains and kings are traceable in the
annals generation after generation for some 1,000 years. The theory that the
Dal Cuinn or Connachta represent most if not all of R1b1c7 in Ireland is
also bolstered by the Trinity study which found the DNA nearly absent from much
of Ireland, particularly in the south but also much lighter even non existent
in native Irish surnames in much of eastern Ulster. What this tells us is
the DNA is concentrated in territories controlled by the Dal Cuinn or Ui Neill
in Ireland, which boils down to much of Connacht, Donegal, Tyrone and
Londonderry counties.

In contrast, we know nothing about the history of R1b1c7 in Scotland and
England except that it's present there in lesser numbers and no one really
knows beyond wild speculation how this came to be.

In terms of DNA then we have tribes and family units in Ireland that split
apart as early as 400-500 AD. , or some 1,500 years ago. Yet all anyone can
find in the markers are some individual family mutation patterns. Examples
have been posted to this list before but some of the surnames with highly
identifiable marker patterns are the O'Dohertys, McLaughlins, O'Gallaghers,
Ewings and Duncans. Yet there seems to be nothing in DNA that further
distinguishes between them. For example, we see nothing that really distinguishes
between Cenel Conaill and Cenel Eoghain in Ireland; or between the Connachta
clans in the west. Another example might be the southern UI Neill but samples
for these are so scarce it's possible their supposed descent from sons of Nial
was a genealogical fiction. We also see nothing that helps distinguish
between Irish and Scottish R1b1c7 (not to mention English).

Why is this? Does this say something about the age of R1b1c7? Is 1,500
to 2,000 years not enough time for identifiable sub-clades in terms of marker
patterns to emerge from a given haplogroup or SNP? Is there anything to
compare this situation to in the DNA literature? Has anyone studied a broad but
very specific tribe over 2,000 years to see what marker patterns result over
that time period? Are we expecting too much from the DNA markers we have
now? Would other markers help? Or is what we have now sufficient but we just
don't know how to interpret it correctly?

Looking at raw GDs in R1b1c7 doesn't seem to be getting us anywhere. Most
R1b1c7 clusters tightly against the modal in both Ireland and Scotland.
Looking for specific marker patterns also does not seem to be getting us
anywhere except in the case of specific families which stand out against the
background clutter.


John







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