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Archiver > DNA-R1B1C7 > 2008-02 > 1203553918

Subject: Re: [DNA-R1B1C7] Age of R1b1c7
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2008 19:31:58 EST

In a message dated 2/20/2008 9:21:51 A.M. Central Standard Time,

That said, I think the scenarios Paul raises as possibilities do not explain
the appearance of R1b1c7 in American Ewings, though I'm sure that they do
account for this in some families. I say this because we have a very good
paper trail on most of the families in question to Presbyterians in early
18th century Pennsylvania/Maryland, and prior to that to late 17th century
Donegal. We have both southern and northern branches of these families in
America, and have a very good idea of their respective migration paths.
Among those Ewings on whom we do not have deep conventional genealogy, there
is no preponderance of R1b1c7 haplotypes among southerners. My impression is
that if anything, the reverse would be true, though I have not carefully
re-analyzed the data with this question in mind and am really just shooting
off my mouth here. (Maybe I should go into politics, eh?)

With the prevalence of R1b1c7 in Scotland I'm not sure why you'd question
why your group of Ewings matched that modal. R1b1c7 is spread thinly across
much of Scotland, from the western Isles through Galloway and the lowlands and
into the northern border regions of England. The fact that other Ewings in
Scotland are not R1b1c7 would seem to imply multiple origins for the surname.
Clearly R1b1c7 is not as prevalent anywhere in Scotland as it is in
west-northwest Ireland but it's there in substantial amounts.

How and when did R1b1c7 come to Scotland (and England)? We have a few
very odd R1b1c7 matches in terms of surnames such as Blanchard and Waddleworth
(from the Sorenson site), not to mention Lamineck in Germany or Myrup from
Denmark. We also have a lot of complete unknowns from Scotland (Vint, Laws,
Paul, Templeton, Urquhart, Elliot, Grierson). How did this DNA come to be
scattered around Scotland in different locations and seemingly unconnected
surnames? We don't see any comparable to the Irish pattern, where certain surnames
historically linked to a common ancestor (Nial) are a majority R1b1c7.

Some may have filtered into the western Isles through connections with Iona.
Or other Irish monasteries elsewhere in Scotland. But I don't see this as
an explanation for every R1b1c7 in Scotland or England (or France and

The historical record is not going to help us much. We know nothing about
events in either Scotland or Ireland prior to the time of Nial. His reputed
ancestors are shrouded in myth and mystery. If R1b1c7 really is about 2,000
years old (0 BC) then we have a gap of about 5 centuries between then and Nial
(450 AD) and events in Ireland only truly become historical and not
mythological in the Irish annals much later.

The earliest know person in Ui Neill history who may be truly historical is
Tuathal Teachtmar, assigned a date of either 135 or 235 A.D. by Mael Mura, an
Irish scribe of the 9th century. His story is unbelievably unhistoric.
Supposedly the Milesians had arrived in Ireland thousands of years before and
conquered all the native tribes (thereafter known as the Aithechthuatha or non
royal tribes of Ireland). These can probably be equated with the Fir Bolg of
the Milesian legends. According to the legends, all the seed of Ugaine Mor
(an early Milesian king of Ireland) were slain except for Tuathal Teachtmar,
then a child in the womb of his mother (a Scot). His mother fled to Scotland
for refuge and there gave birth to Tuathal. Years later Tuathal gathered an
army and re-took Ireland from the Aithechthuatha, re-gaining his lost

O'Rahilly didn't believe this silly tale either and that's the reason why
he described Tuathal Teachtmar as the invasion leader of the northern goidels
(ie, the Ui Neill). O'Rahilly, for reasons he never fully explained but may
have been linguistic in origin (P vs. Q-Celt), then claimed Tuathal
Teachtmar came directly to Ireland from Gaul, in spite of the fact that the earliest
known legends portray him as a refugee from Ireland with a Scottish mother
who grew up in Scotland.

O'Rahilly has this to say about the legends of Tuathal Teachtmar:

"The genuine tradition concerning Tuathal told how he had led the ancestors
of the Midland Goidels to Ireland, and how had had overcome the non-goidelic
tribes who had hitherto ruled the country, and who henceforth were to be
vassals (aithechthuatha) of the Goidels. But the pseudo-historians and
genealogists, who would give no countenance to a late date for the Goidelic invasion,
insisted that Tuathal was an Irishman and was descended from a long line of
Irish ancestors; and so in its accepted literary form the legend no longer
represents Tuthal as a foreigner invading Ireland for the first time, but treats
him as the rightful heir to the Irish throne who comes to Ireland to recover
his patrimony, of which he has been deprived by the aithechthuatha."

That is basically the myth surrounding R1b1c7 in Ireland; in Scotland and
England we know nothing.


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