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Subject: [DNA-R1B1C7] Age of R1b1c7
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2008 00:35:12 EST


I found what is at this point a fairly old description by John McEwen of the
age of R1b1c7 (May 2006). As far as I know though no one has ventured any
other opinion.



"Briefly it makes up around 20% of R1b of Irish origin and is also prevalent
in western Scotland. The data of Moore et al. (2006) who used more
restrictive criteria in defining the cluster suggested it is very prevalent in North
West Ireland, and based on its association with surnames they demonstrated a
significant association with Ui Neill descendants (these are descendants of
Niall of the nine hostages an extremely famous Irish King of the 5th century
AD). The cluster is about 46% of the age of R1b and is most likely at least
3400 years old based on extremely conservative assumptions. Much more has been
written and speculated about this SNP on the Genealogy DNA listserver."

3,400 years ago would be 1392 BC. (more or less). If this is a conservative
assumption then it could go back a lot further than that.

We know nothing about this period in Irish history or indeed the history
of the entire British Isles. What we do know is at the dawn of true Irish
history c. 600 A.D. or later a shadowy figure named Nial 'of the Nine Hostages'
in Ireland is credited with being the ancestor of a handful of dynasties in
the west, northwest and midlands of Ireland. His death is listed in the Irish
annals at 405 A.D. but may not be accurate. Most historians think he died
somewhat later, closer to 450 A.D., based on the obits of his sons. This
death date in the annals is not a contemporary, eyewitness account. Irish
scribes often interjected purely mythological data into the annals. The great
majority of R1b1c7 in Ireland appear to be descended from this line which did
not begin with Nial himself. Myth and legend in Ireland speak of earlier
ancestors, some of whom may be purely mythological, including Conn 'of the
Hundred Battles' and Tuathal Teachtmar. Beyond Tuathal Teachtmar the names in the
pedigree are completely unreliable.

The earliest source on Tuathal's conquest of Ireland is a poem by Mael
Mura of Othain (d. 887), who placed Tuathal's death at either 135 or 235 A.D.
(manuscript copies differ). According to Mael Mura, Tuathal Teachtmar came to
Ireland to quell a revolt of the Aithechthuatha. The poem tells us nothing of
Tuathal's early life but simply states he came to claim his heritage,
implying an Irish descent and exile. In this endeavor he was joined by Fiachra
Cassan (of Ireland), his brother Findamail, and 600 men. Tuathal fought and won
battles with the vassal tribes of the four provinces. He then assembled the
conquered kings of the provinces at Tara and made them swear to be loyal to
his race forever.

The famed Conn 'of the Hundred Battles' of whom everyone has heard is
portrayed in the pedigrees as a grandson of Tuathal.

Later versions of the legend embelished on the bare bones "facts" presented
by Mael Mura. In the tract the Borama (Book of Leinster, c. 1170) Tuathal's
father and grandfather are said to have been slain in Ireland by the
Aithechthuatha. Another account in the same ms. says all the seed of Ugaine Mor in
Ireland were slain by the Aithechthuatha except for Tuathal. His mother took
him to Fiachra Cassan, who saved his life, and later sent him to Scotland to
raise an army to regain his lost kingdom in Ireland. In yet another
version, Tuathal's mother fled to Scotland and there gave birth. Twenty years later
he returned with two ships, landing at Malahide Bay in Co. Dublin.

Why the seed of Ugaine Mor? About half of Ireland were said to be
descendants of Ugaine Mor, including the Ui Neill, Connachta, Airgialla, Lagin of
Leinster, the Dal Riata and Ulaidh of NE Ireland. These were the noble, goidelic
peoples of Ireland, descended from good old KIng Milesius, or at least the
ones descended from his son Heremon. The Aithechthuatha were the pre-Milesian
vassal class of non noble blood.

My main reason in going through this material is to show that nothing of
substance is known in Irish texts or mythology about the history of Ireland
prior to the time of Nial. And even Nial himself may inhabit the shadowy realm
of mythology and not genuine history. The idea of an Aithechthuatha or
vassal class in Ireland is a reference to the ancient peoples said to populate
Ireland prior to the arrival of the Milesians from Spain, peoples descended
from the Fir Bolg or descendants of Nemed. There's no true history in any of
this.

Most DNA experts who have given their opinions on the subject also believe
R1b1c7 and the SNP M222 originated in Ireland. We also find R1b1c7
scattered across parts of Scotland and into northern England. How do we account for
this given the fact that in Ireland it mostly seems to be concentrated in
descendants of the Sil Cuind, or descendants of Conn 'of the Hundred Battles.'?
There are a number of major population groups in Ireland, of which the Sil
Cuind were one. Others include the Lagin of Leinster, the Ulaidh, Dal Riata,
and Dal nAraidi of NE Ireland, Eoghanachta of Munster and the Lagin of
Leinster. These weren't the figments of someone's imagination but known
chieftains and kings of territories in Ireland. None of the rest of have anything but
trace amounts of R1b1c7. R1b1c7 in the Trinity study is only dominant in
the west and northwest of Ireland, territories controlled by the Sil Cuind.

And yet if the SNP originated 3,400 years ago or earlier there are almost
2,000 years of unrecorded history in which some R1b1c7 may have migrated into
Scotland and England. In Scotland not a single one of the Dal Riata clans
has more than a scattering of R1b1c7, similar to that found in non Ui Neill
territories in Ireland. I have yet to see a Scottish clan of any size such as
the McDonalds, McGregors, Campbells, etc. in which R1b1c7 is a major factor.
Instead it's scattered among surnames from western Scotland into the
lowlands, popping up in individual families and surnames but not in entire clans and
tribes as in Ireland. I don't see anything in the least comparable to the Ui
Neill R1b1c7 phenomenon in Scotland or England. Instead we have individual
families, some only traceable back to the 1600s, names such as Ewing, Vint,
Millican, Robertson, Blanchard, Duncan.

I have no idea what to make of this material myself. One thing that is
apparent is not all R1b1c7 are descendants of Nial. And due to the time frame
for the origin of M222 versus the time of Nial it seems obvious that the DNA
could have come into Scotland and England at any time from almost 1400 BC. or
earlier to within a few hundred years ago.

John McEwen also had this to say:

"Unfortunately, the various names for this group are used interchangeably
when more caution should be exercised. The North West Irish Variety and
R1bSTR19Irish are essentially equivalent, M222+ appears to date to also be largely
equivalent as well, but a greater number of individuals need to be tested. The
surname derived IMH of Moore et al (2006) in contrast is more difficult to
compare unless additional testing is undertaken. However, it is likely to
represent a smaller less diverse subgroup."

That makes sense (a smaller less diverse subgroup) if R1b1c7 in Ireland
are truly descended from a common ancestor who lived sometime around the time
of Nial (perhaps not Nial himself but an earlier ancestor). It appears that
means they would have less STR diversity than those descended much earlier
from the same basic group. What John's referring to here is the group of
surnames listed by Trinity in their article. All are Sil Cuind.

(O')Gallagher (12), (O')Boyle (9), (O')Doherty (5), O'Donnell (4), O'Connor
(3), Cannon (3), Bradley (2), O'Reilly (2), Flynn (2), (Mc)Kee (2), Campbell
(1), Devlin (1), Donnelly (1), Egan (1), Gormley (1), Hynes (1), McCaul (1),
McGovern (1), McLoughlin (1), McManus (1), McMenamin (1), Molloy (1), O'Kane
(1), O'Rourke (1), and Quinn (1).

If anyone has any ideas on how to measure STR diversity as described by
John McEwen I hope you'll say something. Is there some kind of software
package that does this? Are we talking about the raw number of mutations against
the group modal? How exactly do you measure STR diversity?


John



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