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Archiver > DNA-R1B1C7 > 2008-02 > 1202507476


From: "Paul Conroy" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA-R1B1C7] Southern Ui Neill DNA
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2008 16:51:16 -0500
References: <cc5.28e0b12d.34d7b7ba@aol.com>
In-Reply-To: <cc5.28e0b12d.34d7b7ba@aol.com>


John,

It would be interesting to see a complete survey of Britain for the presence
of R1b1c7, as right now it only seems to appear in places known to have had
Irish colonization..

Whereas in Ireland, it appears in areas associated with the Ui Neill, and
descendants, and a smattering all around the country, except for some areas
in Leinster and North Munster - for obvious reasons.

That would yield more information on a TMRCA for all R1b1c7's.

I should also note, that one of my recent exact 12-marker matches is someone
by the name "Brian Keltner", which would appear to be German - though
interestingly the name is a cognate of "Celt"...

Cheers,
Paul



On Feb 3, 2008 7:35 PM, <> wrote:

>
> In a message dated 2/3/2008 1:22:17 P.M. Central Standard Time,
> writes:
>
> Perhaps someone can enlighten me. I'm confused about the significance
> of
> being R1b1c7 in relation to the level of DNA testing. Is a Ui Neill DNA
> linkage indicated simply by matching at the 12 marker level? If so, then
> that would seem to cast a wide net. I was under the impression that
> deeper
> testing would be more enlightening, and would in fact help in
> understanding
> both the Ui Neill DNA connection as well as migration patterns.
>
>
>
> I think David Wilson addressed this question the other day. In the 38-67
> range range of markers there are only a couple of markers that stand out
> as
> R1b1c7 indicators, as they differ from mainline R1b. If you really want
> deeper
> testing the SNP M222+ is the ultimate indicator.
>
> Restricting an analysis of R1b1c7 to the British Isles, it appears in
> Ireland, Scotland and England, particularly in northern England. Heaviest
> in NW
> Ireland, heavy in parts of Scotland, very light in England. In my own
> opinion
> not all of these are Ui Neill or descendants of Nial. In Ireland R1b1c7
> seems to be mostly found in either descendants of Nial or of his alleged
> brothers, although the DNA does appear in family lines not associated
> with the UI
> Neill or Connachta (such as the O'Sullivans and McCarthys). I have yet
> to see
> any Irish sept that is a majority of R1b1c7 that is not linked somehow to
> the
> Ui Neill, Connachta or one of the territories held by them. If anyone
> has an
> y knowledge of one I'd be interested in hearing about it.
>
> The problem I have with analyzing R1b1c7 in Ireland is the origin of
> many
> of the surnames is unknown. Only the major chieftains, some herenaghs
> and
> church officials appear in the annals, the pedigree collections or the
> topographical poems. Sometimes you can guess by territory. The
> McGinleys in the
> Trinity spreadsheet are a Donegal sept but their origin is unknown. In
> this
> case it's a fairly safe bet they are Ui Neill (either Cenel Conaill or
> Cenel
> Eoghain). But the problem is also compounded by the large number of
> Scottish
> R1b1c7 settled in Ireland especially after the Plantation Period (mostly
> in
> Ulster). Up to 30-40% of some of these counties in 1659 are listed as
> English
> or Scottish.
>
> So far, as David Wilson has stated several times, there is no way to
> distinguish between Irish and Scottish R1b1c7. We see only individual
> family
> markers - these can be significant, as in the McLaughlins, Dohertys and
> Ewings,
> three R1b1c7 septs with distinctive markers. But no one yet has come up
> with
> any series of distinctive markers that might differentiate between
> descendants
> of Nial and other R1b1c7. Or even between tribes said to descend from
> NIal
> such as the Cenel Eoghain or Cenel Conaill.
>
> The main reason I personally think not all R1b1c7 are descended from Nial
> are the statements of DNA experts that place the origin thousands of years
> ago
> (3,000 minimum, according to John McEwen). Since Nial died c. 400-450 and
> M222+ might have originated as early as 1,000 BC. or earlier, that's
> clearly
> long before the time of Nial. Secondarily even Irish records do not claim
> the
> Connachta (very much R1b1c7) are descended directly from Nial. Their
> alleged
> connection through brothers is suspicious but clearly there is a link
> somewhere.
>
> I'm not even sure myself we have the right markers yet to successfully
> subdivide R1b1c7. As an example, Trinity used a set of markers generally
> not
> tested by FTDNA. Their identification of the IMH or what we'd call NW
> irish or
> R1b1c7 is based on the first 12 markers used by FTDNA plus a few other
> markers. Those extra markers are DYS 434,435, 438, 460. A few others
> Trinity
> used were picked up in the FTDNA 38-67 marker set. I've also seen other
> markers
> listed at other testing companies such as Sorenson that seem to have no
> counterparts at FTDNA. Maybe one of these other markers or combinations
> of
> markers could turn out to be significant. I'm writing this as a complete
> DNA
> amateur. My own interest and expertise is in the history of Donegal
> which is
> predominantly R1b1c7.
>
> This is just my opinion but I think for the most part you can pick out
> R1b1c7 on the basis of the first twelve markers in the FTDNA dataset.
> There are
> exceptions to everything but if the sample does not have DYS 392 = 14
> then
> it's probably not R1b1c7. There are a few tested (SNP M222+) with a 13
> at this
> marker but it's unusual. Conversely there are some samples with a 14
> that
> are clearly not R1b1c7 (including one Wilson sample that consistently
> tests
> negative for M222). If you really examine this DNA sample (Wilson) it
> might
> shake your confidence a little in analyzing R1b1c7 on the basis of STRS
> alone,
> even at 37 markers.
>
> Where do we go from here? I have no idea. If more markers were the
> answer
> I think we'd have one by now. Maybe we just need the right markers. Or
> different markers. We've got enough 67 marker R1b1c7 samples out there
> now and
> no one has spotted anything. Right now I think more markers is just a
> waste
> of money for my purposes (deep clan relationships). That might be quite
> helpful for those more interested in recent genealogical relationships.
> I'm
> floundering in the dark myself on this. Some light from above would be
> helpful.
>
>
>
> John
>
>
>
>
>
>
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