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Archiver > DNA-R1B1C7 > 2008-02 > 1202088774


From: "Marie Kerr" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA-R1B1C7] Southern Ui Neill DNA
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2008 21:06:13 -0500
In-Reply-To: <cc5.28e0b12d.34d7b7ba@aol.com>


John,

Thanks so much for your thoughtful and insightful reply. I've always
suspected that the science doesn't quite support its findings. Clearly the
more samples we get the more we'll know. I personally would like to find
more "recent ancestor" matches by deep testing, because I'm interested in my
genealogy as much as the big picture. I guess we'll just have to wait for
science and the data samples to catch up to each other.

Although I'm 3/4 Irish, I'm also part Scottish and British, with the names
Wallace and Owens. I only wish I could find "cousins" on that side.

Marie

-----Original Message-----
From:
[mailto:] On Behalf Of
Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2008 7:35 PM
To:
Subject: Re: [DNA-R1B1C7] Southern Ui Neill DNA


In a message dated 2/3/2008 1:22:17 P.M. Central Standard Time,
writes:

Perhaps someone can enlighten me. I'm confused about the significance of
being R1b1c7 in relation to the level of DNA testing. Is a Ui Neill DNA
linkage indicated simply by matching at the 12 marker level? If so, then
that would seem to cast a wide net. I was under the impression that deeper
testing would be more enlightening, and would in fact help in understanding
both the Ui Neill DNA connection as well as migration patterns.



I think David Wilson addressed this question the other day. In the 38-67
range range of markers there are only a couple of markers that stand out as

R1b1c7 indicators, as they differ from mainline R1b. If you really want
deeper
testing the SNP M222+ is the ultimate indicator.

Restricting an analysis of R1b1c7 to the British Isles, it appears in
Ireland, Scotland and England, particularly in northern England. Heaviest
in NW
Ireland, heavy in parts of Scotland, very light in England. In my own
opinion
not all of these are Ui Neill or descendants of Nial. In Ireland R1b1c7
seems to be mostly found in either descendants of Nial or of his alleged
brothers, although the DNA does appear in family lines not associated with
the UI
Neill or Connachta (such as the O'Sullivans and McCarthys). I have yet to
see
any Irish sept that is a majority of R1b1c7 that is not linked somehow to
the
Ui Neill, Connachta or one of the territories held by them. If anyone has
an
y knowledge of one I'd be interested in hearing about it.

The problem I have with analyzing R1b1c7 in Ireland is the origin of many

of the surnames is unknown. Only the major chieftains, some herenaghs and
church officials appear in the annals, the pedigree collections or the
topographical poems. Sometimes you can guess by territory. The McGinleys
in the
Trinity spreadsheet are a Donegal sept but their origin is unknown. In
this
case it's a fairly safe bet they are Ui Neill (either Cenel Conaill or
Cenel
Eoghain). But the problem is also compounded by the large number of
Scottish
R1b1c7 settled in Ireland especially after the Plantation Period (mostly in

Ulster). Up to 30-40% of some of these counties in 1659 are listed as
English
or Scottish.

So far, as David Wilson has stated several times, there is no way to
distinguish between Irish and Scottish R1b1c7. We see only individual
family
markers - these can be significant, as in the McLaughlins, Dohertys and
Ewings,
three R1b1c7 septs with distinctive markers. But no one yet has come up
with
any series of distinctive markers that might differentiate between
descendants
of Nial and other R1b1c7. Or even between tribes said to descend from NIal

such as the Cenel Eoghain or Cenel Conaill.

The main reason I personally think not all R1b1c7 are descended from Nial
are the statements of DNA experts that place the origin thousands of years
ago
(3,000 minimum, according to John McEwen). Since Nial died c. 400-450 and
M222+ might have originated as early as 1,000 BC. or earlier, that's clearly

long before the time of Nial. Secondarily even Irish records do not claim
the
Connachta (very much R1b1c7) are descended directly from Nial. Their
alleged
connection through brothers is suspicious but clearly there is a link
somewhere.

I'm not even sure myself we have the right markers yet to successfully
subdivide R1b1c7. As an example, Trinity used a set of markers generally
not
tested by FTDNA. Their identification of the IMH or what we'd call NW
irish or
R1b1c7 is based on the first 12 markers used by FTDNA plus a few other
markers. Those extra markers are DYS 434,435, 438, 460. A few others
Trinity
used were picked up in the FTDNA 38-67 marker set. I've also seen other
markers
listed at other testing companies such as Sorenson that seem to have no
counterparts at FTDNA. Maybe one of these other markers or combinations of

markers could turn out to be significant. I'm writing this as a complete
DNA
amateur. My own interest and expertise is in the history of Donegal which
is
predominantly R1b1c7.

This is just my opinion but I think for the most part you can pick out
R1b1c7 on the basis of the first twelve markers in the FTDNA dataset.
There are
exceptions to everything but if the sample does not have DYS 392 = 14 then
it's probably not R1b1c7. There are a few tested (SNP M222+) with a 13 at
this
marker but it's unusual. Conversely there are some samples with a 14 that
are clearly not R1b1c7 (including one Wilson sample that consistently tests

negative for M222). If you really examine this DNA sample (Wilson) it
might
shake your confidence a little in analyzing R1b1c7 on the basis of STRS
alone,
even at 37 markers.

Where do we go from here? I have no idea. If more markers were the answer

I think we'd have one by now. Maybe we just need the right markers. Or
different markers. We've got enough 67 marker R1b1c7 samples out there now
and
no one has spotted anything. Right now I think more markers is just a
waste
of money for my purposes (deep clan relationships). That might be quite
helpful for those more interested in recent genealogical relationships.
I'm
floundering in the dark myself on this. Some light from above would be
helpful.



John






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