DNA-R1B1C7-L Archives

From: ologan <>
Subject: Re: [DNA-R1B1C7] DNA-R1B1C7 Digest, Vol 2, Issue 24
Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2008 17:20:08 -0600
References: <mailman.23.1202025607.15888.dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com>
In-Reply-To: <mailman.23.1202025607.15888.dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com>

John,

I have tested and confirmed R1b1c7 (M222) but, I'm new to Irish
history. I have always wondered about the origin of my surname, LOGAN
and had read about O'Rahilly's four separate waves of Celtic invaders:

* The Cruithne <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cruithne_%28people%29>;
or Priteni (c. 700 - 500 BC)
* The Builg <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Builg>; or Érainn
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89rainn>; (c. 500 BC)
* The Lagin <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lagin>;, the Domnainn
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domnainn>; and the Gálioin
<http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=G%C3%A1lioin&action=edit>;
(c. 300 BC)
* The Goidels <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goidelic_languages>; or
Gael <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gael>; (c. 100 BC)

But, your repeated use of "Lagin" in your post got me to wondering if Logan could have been derived from Lagin (I know a Lagin surname exist). Do you know the meaning and/ or source of the term "Lagin"?

Thanks,

O. Logan




wrote:

>Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: Southern Ui Neill DNA ()
> 2. Re: Southern Ui Neill DNA (Paul Conroy)
> 3. Re: Southern Ui Neill DNA ()
>
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Message: 1
>Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2008 04:53:43 EST
>From:
>Subject: Re: [DNA-R1B1C7] Southern Ui Neill DNA
>To:
>Message-ID: <>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
>
>In a message dated 2/2/2008 12:52:51 A.M. Central Standard Time,
> writes:
>
>*book launch:* A history of the O'Dunnes entitled 'Duthai Ui Riagain'
>written by Seosam MacCaba, a native of Clonaslee will be launched at a
>special function taking place in the local Heritage Centre on Friday,
>September 24 at 8 pm. The book which was recently published by the author's
>daughter Mary McCabe should be of interest to numerous people not least of
>whom bear the name Dunne or *Conroy (a branch of the Dunne clan)* as well as
>many others throughout the Slieve Bloom area of which the Dunne's were
>Chieftans. Seosam MacCaba (Joe McCabe) was headmaster for many years. Paddy
>Heaney, local historian will perform the honours at the launch which is
>being organised by local man Michael Dunne. All are welcome to attend and
>the book will be on sale for those who wish to purchase a first edition.
>
>That would seem to confirm my story.
>
>It actually makes sense to me that the Conraghys could be related to the
>Dunns. (i'm using that spelling because that's how they appear in the 1659
>census). Their largest concentration in the census (17) is in Tinnihinch Barony
>where there are also 18 Dunns (Dun, 18). Is it possible the story about Conn
>na Ratha is misplaced in time? Could the English referred to be Normans
>instead? What sparked my curiosity was the fact that the Dunnes of Laois/Offaly
>do not have a pedigree one associates with R1b1c7. Their pedigree goes back
>to Flainn da conghal and from there to Rosa failgigh m Cathaoir Moir.
>Failgigh a quo Offaly. They should be closely related to a lot of Leinster
>families such as O'Connor Failge, O'Dempsey, MacColgan, O'Hennessy. There are
>pedigrees for all of these in O'Clery. Most appear in the Topographical Poems.
>
>Lord of Ui-Failghe406 the land of cattle -
>It is now unknown to poets;
>O'Conchobhair407 is hero of the plain408
>On the green round hill of Cruachan.409
>
>Over Ui Riagain411 of heavy routs,
>A vigorous tribe who conquer in battle,
>Is O'Duinn, chief of demolition,
>Hero of the golden battle-spears.
>
>Another dynast who is known to me,
>O'hAenghusa412 on Clan-Colgan,
>Fine his country. beyond [that of] the Fians of Fail,
>Which abuts on the grass of Cruachan.
>
>The Clann-Maoilughra419 over every tribe,
>Noble the degree of their race;
>A smooth plain this sept has defended,
>The land is hereditary to O'Diomosaigh.
>
>The only one not specifically listed in the Topo Poems are MacColgan. but
>they were closely related to O'Hennessy of Clan-Colgan. If there's a true clan
>relationship here one might expect these families to have the same DNA and by
>extension, the Conraghys.
>
>O'Rahilly has some statements on the descendants of Cathaoir Mor.
>
>"Cathaer Mar, the ancestor-deity of the Lagin under one of his several names
>naturally gets a prominent place in the Laginian pedigree. At Cathaer the
>Ui Fhailbe (Aui Fhoilgi) and the Ui Bairrche are made to join the main stem.
>The affiliation of the Ui Bairrche to the Lagin is a fabrication, as we shall
>see; but the kinship of the Ui Fhailge to the Lagin is beyond reasonable
>doubt."
>
>"On the other hand, the descent of the Ui Ui Fhaile from Rus Failgech, son
>of Cathaer Mor, is a genealogical fiction. Actually they take their name from
>Failge Berraide, who lived in the early sixth century. In 510 he won a
>battle at Fremainn Mide (AU). In the tract on the Borama tis battle is credited
>to Falge Rot mac Cathair and the same Failge Rot, 'son of Cathaer', occupies
>second place in the list of kings of the Ui Fhailge, LL. 40 c. 3. In Ai, 10 b
>4, he is called Rus Failge."
>
>So O'Rahilly believes the Ui Fhailge were legitimately connected to the
>Lagin.
>
>This is where things get a little interesting in terms of DNA.
>
>We do have a DNA signature tentatively identified as Lagin. It's largely
>based on the DNA of the O'Brynes of Leinster because that's the largest group
>of DNA samples we have. They are also said to descend from Cathaoir Mor.
>There is a modal on Ysearch called the Leinster modal (called by some the Irish
>Sea modal) which seems to fit the O'Byrnes of Leinster to a "T." ((B9NW4).
>Paul Burns of the Burns surname project has identified this as the modal of
>the Byrnes of Leinster. The Trinity database also lists a lot of surname in
>Leinster that match this modal at 12 markers, including Byrne, Kelly, McEvoy,
>Murphy, O'Neill, Ryan, Farrelly and a few McGillacuddys. From public DNA
>databases other matches include Cavanagh, Ryan, Dunphy, Tynan, Whalen, O'Conner,
>Doyle, Toole, Towle. Whatever these surname matches have in common most are
>at least common Leinster surnames, even if there is no known connection to
>the Lagin. The McEvoys were one of the seven septs of Laois.
>
>None of these are R1b1c7. 12 markers is enough to eliminate them from that
>category.
>
>Modal from the Trinity listings for O'Byrne.
>
>13-24-14-11-11-14-[12]- 12-12-14-13-30
>
>We have one O'Connor sample that matches this modal (from the Sorenson
>database). The accompanying pedigree says "Co. Kerry." We have no idea if this
>is an O'Connor Failghe or not. So far I see no other samples from the Offaly
>clans that match this DNA ( no Dempseys, Dunnes, Hennessys, McColgans.
>
>Although this modal is being discussed off list so far I have yet to see a
>single DNA expert interest him or herself in the subject. So I personally
>have no idea about the validity of the modal - except that it does match a lot
>of surnames associated with Leinster, some of the known Chieftains and Kings of
> Leinster (Cavanagh). The modal was also tentatively associated with ccgg
>at DYS 464 although the last I heard experts were saying that condition was too
> volatile to prove descent. Others, including John McEwen, at one time
>thought it was a pseudo-SNP.
>
>There are 3 Dempsey samples on Ysearch. None appear to match this modal.
>There are 3 Hennessy samples on Ysearch. Two could possible match this
>modal but are 15 at DYS 389-1 instead of 14.
>There is one Colgan sample on Ysearch, origins unknown. R1b1c7.
>There are about 8 O'Connor samples on Ysearch. None seem to match the modal.
>I see no Dunnes that match the modal except possibly XNAME and these markers
>seem hopelessly scrambled.
>I also see no Conroy listings that match the modal.
>
>There seems to be a limited number of surnames associated with the Ofailge.
>But the pedigrees and topo Poems just list the major chieftains. There
>could easily be others.
>
>I was drawn into researching Leinster DNA because in our McLaughlin surname
>project we have a group of McLaughlin/McCloughans from Ulster who also match
>the Leinster modal. They are probably ultimately from Scotland. But that's
>another story.
>
>
>John
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