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From: "Paul Conroy" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA-R1B1C7] Southern Ui Neill DNA
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2008 14:41:40 -0500
References: <cf2.2673ac52.34d597a7@aol.com>
In-Reply-To: <cf2.2673ac52.34d597a7@aol.com>


John,

Well O'Hanlon says the the O'Gorman or McGorman clan were the progenitors of
the O'Whelan (Whelan, Whalen, Phelan, Phalen), O'Dunne, O'Dempsey and Colgan
clanns - which would seem to match what you are saying.

On Page 348 of Volume I of the "History of the Queen's County", he says:

> It appears sufficiently established from the "Will of Cathair Mor", this
> monarch bequeathed to his "fierce vigorous" son, Daire Barrach, who was an
> ancestor to the MacGorman, chief of the Ui Bairrche, the charge of sitting
> "with boldness" on the frontier of Tuath Laighean, or North Leinster, and of
> harassing the lands of Deas Ghabhair, or South Leinster. This latter was
> another name applied to Ui Ceinnsealaigh, and the Ossorians appear to have
> been included within it.
>


Later on page 349 he says of the O'Gormans:

> ...they lived on either side of the Barrow at an early period. But at a
> later period, they were placed solely on the Western side of that river.
> After the establishment of surnames, the chief family took the name O'Gorman
> or MacGorman; but shortly after the English invasion, they were driven from
> a great part of their original territory by the Baron Walter de Riddlesford,
> who became master of all lands above Carlow. Then, they seem to have taken
> refuge chiefly in the mountainous district of Slievemargue.
>

Then he mentions how they dispersed to Ulster, Tipperary and Clare:

> ...There is a curious account of their dispersion and settlement in
> Munster, given by Mael-in Og Mac Bruaidhadha or Mac Brody, who in 1563
> succeeded to be chief poet to the tribes of Ibh Breacain, or the O'Gormans,
> and Ibh Fearmaic, or the O'Gradys. His poem on the O'Gormans contains two
> hundred and seventy-six verses. He traces their pedigree back to Cathair
> Mor, and, indeed even to Heremon, son of Milesius himself, who first landed
> in Ireland, A.M. 2935. It was composed on the occasion of electing Donald
> O'Gorman, as chief of his tribe. From this noble stock sprung the OPhelans
> or O'Whelans, the O'Dunnes, the O'Dempseys, and the Clan Colgans.
>

Then he mentions another derivation of the O'Gorman name, on page 351:

> A Singular legend seems to have prevailed, that so early as the sixth
> centuary - A.D. 590 is the date - one Gurmund, said to have been a chief
> pirate of the Norwegians, and an African, acquired a part of Ireland from
> the Norwegians, and then caused himself to be proclaimed King of Ireland. He
> built a castle at Gormagston. He had a son and heir Burchard, who was chief
> of Lagenia. His successor was commonly called Gormagheyn, held to be chief
> of Leinster and Baron of Margee. Moreover, that Gurmund is said to have
> conquered Ireland, to have first opened a way to the men of this country in
> the Irish Sea, and afterwards, to have been sent for by the Saxons, who
> wages a war with the British King Cereticus or Carecticus. Gurmund conquered
> him in war, and Followed the Britons beyond the Rivers Severn and Dee.
> Burchard, the son of Gurmund, commonly called O'Gormagheyn, is asserted to
> have been Duke of Leinster, to have built the Grange of Gurmund and his own
> palace on Mount Margee; he is said, also, to have founded the Cathedral
> Church of Old Leighlin. In it, too, tradition stated he had been interred
> under a marble tomb, having his name inscribed on it.
>

The last account he states was:

> ... taken from the romance put into circulation by Geoffrey of Monmouth,
> and contained in the "Annales Breves Hiberniae" by Thady Dowling, Chancellor
> of Leighlin.
>

Again - some of this seems to tally with your DNA findings.

Cheers,
Paul


On Feb 2, 2008 4:53 AM, <> wrote:

> In a message dated 2/2/2008 12:52:51 A.M. Central Standard Time,
> writes:
>
> *book launch:* A history of the O'Dunnes entitled 'Duthai Ui Riagain'
> written by Seosam MacCaba, a native of Clonaslee will be launched at a
> special function taking place in the local Heritage Centre on Friday,
> September 24 at 8 pm. The book which was recently published by the
> author's
> daughter Mary McCabe should be of interest to numerous people not least
> of
> whom bear the name Dunne or *Conroy (a branch of the Dunne clan)* as well
> as
> many others throughout the Slieve Bloom area of which the Dunne's were
> Chieftans. Seosam MacCaba (Joe McCabe) was headmaster for many years.
> Paddy
> Heaney, local historian will perform the honours at the launch which is
> being organised by local man Michael Dunne. All are welcome to attend and
> the book will be on sale for those who wish to purchase a first edition.
>
> That would seem to confirm my story.
>
> It actually makes sense to me that the Conraghys could be related to the
> Dunns. (i'm using that spelling because that's how they appear in the
> 1659
> census). Their largest concentration in the census (17) is in Tinnihinch
> Barony
> where there are also 18 Dunns (Dun, 18). Is it possible the story about
> Conn
> na Ratha is misplaced in time? Could the English referred to be Normans
> instead? What sparked my curiosity was the fact that the Dunnes of
> Laois/Offaly
> do not have a pedigree one associates with R1b1c7. Their pedigree goes
> back
> to Flainn da conghal and from there to Rosa failgigh m Cathaoir Moir.
> Failgigh a quo Offaly. They should be closely related to a lot of
> Leinster
> families such as O'Connor Failge, O'Dempsey, MacColgan, O'Hennessy.
> There are
> pedigrees for all of these in O'Clery. Most appear in the Topographical
> Poems.
>
> Lord of Ui-Failghe406 the land of cattle -
> It is now unknown to poets;
> O'Conchobhair407 is hero of the plain408
> On the green round hill of Cruachan.409
>
> Over Ui Riagain411 of heavy routs,
> A vigorous tribe who conquer in battle,
> Is O'Duinn, chief of demolition,
> Hero of the golden battle-spears.
>
> Another dynast who is known to me,
> O'hAenghusa412 on Clan-Colgan,
> Fine his country. beyond [that of] the Fians of Fail,
> Which abuts on the grass of Cruachan.
>
> The Clann-Maoilughra419 over every tribe,
> Noble the degree of their race;
> A smooth plain this sept has defended,
> The land is hereditary to O'Diomosaigh.
>
> The only one not specifically listed in the Topo Poems are MacColgan. but
> they were closely related to O'Hennessy of Clan-Colgan. If there's a true
> clan
> relationship here one might expect these families to have the same DNA and
> by
> extension, the Conraghys.
>
> O'Rahilly has some statements on the descendants of Cathaoir Mor.
>
> "Cathaer Mar, the ancestor-deity of the Lagin under one of his several
> names
> naturally gets a prominent place in the Laginian pedigree. At Cathaer
> the
> Ui Fhailbe (Aui Fhoilgi) and the Ui Bairrche are made to join the main
> stem.
> The affiliation of the Ui Bairrche to the Lagin is a fabrication, as we
> shall
> see; but the kinship of the Ui Fhailge to the Lagin is beyond reasonable
> doubt."
>
> "On the other hand, the descent of the Ui Ui Fhaile from Rus Failgech, son
> of Cathaer Mor, is a genealogical fiction. Actually they take their name
> from
> Failge Berraide, who lived in the early sixth century. In 510 he won a
> battle at Fremainn Mide (AU). In the tract on the Borama tis battle is
> credited
> to Falge Rot mac Cathair and the same Failge Rot, 'son of Cathaer',
> occupies
> second place in the list of kings of the Ui Fhailge, LL. 40 c. 3. In Ai,
> 10 b
> 4, he is called Rus Failge."
>
> So O'Rahilly believes the Ui Fhailge were legitimately connected to the
> Lagin.
>
> This is where things get a little interesting in terms of DNA.
>
> We do have a DNA signature tentatively identified as Lagin. It's largely
> based on the DNA of the O'Brynes of Leinster because that's the largest
> group
> of DNA samples we have. They are also said to descend from Cathaoir Mor.
> There is a modal on Ysearch called the Leinster modal (called by some the
> Irish
> Sea modal) which seems to fit the O'Byrnes of Leinster to a "T."
> ((B9NW4).
> Paul Burns of the Burns surname project has identified this as the modal
> of
> the Byrnes of Leinster. The Trinity database also lists a lot of surname
> in
> Leinster that match this modal at 12 markers, including Byrne, Kelly,
> McEvoy,
> Murphy, O'Neill, Ryan, Farrelly and a few McGillacuddys. From public DNA
> databases other matches include Cavanagh, Ryan, Dunphy, Tynan, Whalen,
> O'Conner,
> Doyle, Toole, Towle. Whatever these surname matches have in common most
> are
> at least common Leinster surnames, even if there is no known connection
> to
> the Lagin. The McEvoys were one of the seven septs of Laois.
>
> None of these are R1b1c7. 12 markers is enough to eliminate them from
> that
> category.
>
> Modal from the Trinity listings for O'Byrne.
>
> 13-24-14-11-11-14-[12]- 12-12-14-13-30
>
> We have one O'Connor sample that matches this modal (from the Sorenson
> database). The accompanying pedigree says "Co. Kerry." We have no idea
> if this
> is an O'Connor Failghe or not. So far I see no other samples from the
> Offaly
> clans that match this DNA ( no Dempseys, Dunnes, Hennessys, McColgans.
>
> Although this modal is being discussed off list so far I have yet to see a
> single DNA expert interest him or herself in the subject. So I personally
> have no idea about the validity of the modal - except that it does match a
> lot
> of surnames associated with Leinster, some of the known Chieftains and
> Kings of
> Leinster (Cavanagh). The modal was also tentatively associated with ccgg
> at DYS 464 although the last I heard experts were saying that condition
> was too
> volatile to prove descent. Others, including John McEwen, at one time
> thought it was a pseudo-SNP.
>
> There are 3 Dempsey samples on Ysearch. None appear to match this modal.
> There are 3 Hennessy samples on Ysearch. Two could possible match this
> modal but are 15 at DYS 389-1 instead of 14.
> There is one Colgan sample on Ysearch, origins unknown. R1b1c7.
> There are about 8 O'Connor samples on Ysearch. None seem to match the
> modal.
> I see no Dunnes that match the modal except possibly XNAME and these
> markers
> seem hopelessly scrambled.
> I also see no Conroy listings that match the modal.
>
> There seems to be a limited number of surnames associated with the
> Ofailge.
> But the pedigrees and topo Poems just list the major chieftains. There
> could easily be others.
>
> I was drawn into researching Leinster DNA because in our McLaughlin
> surname
> project we have a group of McLaughlin/McCloughans from Ulster who also
> match
> the Leinster modal. They are probably ultimately from Scotland. But
> that's
> another story.
>
>
> John
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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