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From:
Subject: Re: [DNA-R1B1C7] Southern Ui Neill DNA
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2008 04:53:43 EST


In a message dated 2/2/2008 12:52:51 A.M. Central Standard Time,
writes:

*book launch:* A history of the O'Dunnes entitled 'Duthai Ui Riagain'
written by Seosam MacCaba, a native of Clonaslee will be launched at a
special function taking place in the local Heritage Centre on Friday,
September 24 at 8 pm. The book which was recently published by the author's
daughter Mary McCabe should be of interest to numerous people not least of
whom bear the name Dunne or *Conroy (a branch of the Dunne clan)* as well as
many others throughout the Slieve Bloom area of which the Dunne's were
Chieftans. Seosam MacCaba (Joe McCabe) was headmaster for many years. Paddy
Heaney, local historian will perform the honours at the launch which is
being organised by local man Michael Dunne. All are welcome to attend and
the book will be on sale for those who wish to purchase a first edition.

That would seem to confirm my story.

It actually makes sense to me that the Conraghys could be related to the
Dunns. (i'm using that spelling because that's how they appear in the 1659
census). Their largest concentration in the census (17) is in Tinnihinch Barony
where there are also 18 Dunns (Dun, 18). Is it possible the story about Conn
na Ratha is misplaced in time? Could the English referred to be Normans
instead? What sparked my curiosity was the fact that the Dunnes of Laois/Offaly
do not have a pedigree one associates with R1b1c7. Their pedigree goes back
to Flainn da conghal and from there to Rosa failgigh m Cathaoir Moir.
Failgigh a quo Offaly. They should be closely related to a lot of Leinster
families such as O'Connor Failge, O'Dempsey, MacColgan, O'Hennessy. There are
pedigrees for all of these in O'Clery. Most appear in the Topographical Poems.

Lord of Ui-Failghe406 the land of cattle -
It is now unknown to poets;
O'Conchobhair407 is hero of the plain408
On the green round hill of Cruachan.409

Over Ui Riagain411 of heavy routs,
A vigorous tribe who conquer in battle,
Is O'Duinn, chief of demolition,
Hero of the golden battle-spears.

Another dynast who is known to me,
O'hAenghusa412 on Clan-Colgan,
Fine his country. beyond [that of] the Fians of Fail,
Which abuts on the grass of Cruachan.

The Clann-Maoilughra419 over every tribe,
Noble the degree of their race;
A smooth plain this sept has defended,
The land is hereditary to O'Diomosaigh.

The only one not specifically listed in the Topo Poems are MacColgan. but
they were closely related to O'Hennessy of Clan-Colgan. If there's a true clan
relationship here one might expect these families to have the same DNA and by
extension, the Conraghys.

O'Rahilly has some statements on the descendants of Cathaoir Mor.

"Cathaer Mar, the ancestor-deity of the Lagin under one of his several names
naturally gets a prominent place in the Laginian pedigree. At Cathaer the
Ui Fhailbe (Aui Fhoilgi) and the Ui Bairrche are made to join the main stem.
The affiliation of the Ui Bairrche to the Lagin is a fabrication, as we shall
see; but the kinship of the Ui Fhailge to the Lagin is beyond reasonable
doubt."

"On the other hand, the descent of the Ui Ui Fhaile from Rus Failgech, son
of Cathaer Mor, is a genealogical fiction. Actually they take their name from
Failge Berraide, who lived in the early sixth century. In 510 he won a
battle at Fremainn Mide (AU). In the tract on the Borama tis battle is credited
to Falge Rot mac Cathair and the same Failge Rot, 'son of Cathaer', occupies
second place in the list of kings of the Ui Fhailge, LL. 40 c. 3. In Ai, 10 b
4, he is called Rus Failge."

So O'Rahilly believes the Ui Fhailge were legitimately connected to the
Lagin.

This is where things get a little interesting in terms of DNA.

We do have a DNA signature tentatively identified as Lagin. It's largely
based on the DNA of the O'Brynes of Leinster because that's the largest group
of DNA samples we have. They are also said to descend from Cathaoir Mor.
There is a modal on Ysearch called the Leinster modal (called by some the Irish
Sea modal) which seems to fit the O'Byrnes of Leinster to a "T." ((B9NW4).
Paul Burns of the Burns surname project has identified this as the modal of
the Byrnes of Leinster. The Trinity database also lists a lot of surname in
Leinster that match this modal at 12 markers, including Byrne, Kelly, McEvoy,
Murphy, O'Neill, Ryan, Farrelly and a few McGillacuddys. From public DNA
databases other matches include Cavanagh, Ryan, Dunphy, Tynan, Whalen, O'Conner,
Doyle, Toole, Towle. Whatever these surname matches have in common most are
at least common Leinster surnames, even if there is no known connection to
the Lagin. The McEvoys were one of the seven septs of Laois.

None of these are R1b1c7. 12 markers is enough to eliminate them from that
category.

Modal from the Trinity listings for O'Byrne.

13-24-14-11-11-14-[12]- 12-12-14-13-30

We have one O'Connor sample that matches this modal (from the Sorenson
database). The accompanying pedigree says "Co. Kerry." We have no idea if this
is an O'Connor Failghe or not. So far I see no other samples from the Offaly
clans that match this DNA ( no Dempseys, Dunnes, Hennessys, McColgans.

Although this modal is being discussed off list so far I have yet to see a
single DNA expert interest him or herself in the subject. So I personally
have no idea about the validity of the modal - except that it does match a lot
of surnames associated with Leinster, some of the known Chieftains and Kings of
Leinster (Cavanagh). The modal was also tentatively associated with ccgg
at DYS 464 although the last I heard experts were saying that condition was too
volatile to prove descent. Others, including John McEwen, at one time
thought it was a pseudo-SNP.

There are 3 Dempsey samples on Ysearch. None appear to match this modal.
There are 3 Hennessy samples on Ysearch. Two could possible match this
modal but are 15 at DYS 389-1 instead of 14.
There is one Colgan sample on Ysearch, origins unknown. R1b1c7.
There are about 8 O'Connor samples on Ysearch. None seem to match the modal.
I see no Dunnes that match the modal except possibly XNAME and these markers
seem hopelessly scrambled.
I also see no Conroy listings that match the modal.

There seems to be a limited number of surnames associated with the Ofailge.
But the pedigrees and topo Poems just list the major chieftains. There
could easily be others.

I was drawn into researching Leinster DNA because in our McLaughlin surname
project we have a group of McLaughlin/McCloughans from Ulster who also match
the Leinster modal. They are probably ultimately from Scotland. But that's
another story.


John














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