DNA-R1B1C7-L Archives

Archiver > DNA-R1B1C7 > 2008-01 > 1201588624


From: "J. David Grierson" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA-R1B1C7] FTDNA Panel 4 Stability
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 17:37:07 +1100
References: <479C2931.7030006@melbpc.org.au><000101c861ca$c98d0710$6402a8c0@DW1>
In-Reply-To: <000101c861ca$c98d0710$6402a8c0@DW1>


David,
Thanks for this. Turning around your proposition, what I think you are
saying is that if a significant number of people in a name have:

413a = 21 instead of 23
534 = 16 instead of 15
481 = 25 instead of 22
and (with the exception of DYS444) otherwise appear mainstream R1b, then - particularly given that one of them is SNP tested M222+ - they are very likely R1b1c7.
Regards
David Grierson




David Wilson wrote:

>Weighing in late on this discussion. Sorry.
>
>Markers 38-67 interest me a lot. With only three exceptions, the R1b1c7
>modal values for these markers are the same as for mainstream R1b. The
>differences are these:
>
>413a = 21 instead of 23
>534 = 16 instead of 15
>481 = 25 instead of 22
>
>These last 30 markers are in general slow moving markers, which means we
>should expect to see little variance in any relatively young population. But
>as we know, mutations do happen. If two individuals share a non-modal value
>in one of the latter markers but do not share other non-modal markers
>elsewhere in the haplotype, one should think of IBS rather than IBD
>(identity by state, identity by descent). In short, we would be dealing with
>coincidence or convergent evolution.
>
>As to the question about MRCA, I have seen a genetic distance of 6 manifest
>itself in as little as 350 to 400 years -- 10 to 12 generations. If that
>seems like fast evolution, remember that half of them could occur in one
>line and the others in the other line, so you're actually talking about a
>total travel distance of 20 or more generations.
>
>Just a first quick response. I'll try to have further ideas later.
>
>David W.
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From:
>[mailto:] On Behalf Of J. David Grierson
>Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2008 10:48 PM
>To: DNA R1b1c7
>Subject: [DNA-R1B1C7] FTDNA Panel 4 Stability
>
>These questions are for David Wilson, but I think they are of general
>interest, and I would value comment from anybody.
>
>I have a number of what I identify as "Celtic" Grier(son)/Greers with the
>Panel 4 (ie loci 38-67) results almost identical to the R1b1c7 modal from
>YSearch. The only difference is in DYS444, which in ALL members of the
>Grier(son)Greer project is 13, a very rare result. Indeed, there appears to
>be only one other R1b1c7 member (16616 Conroy) with this score. As it
>happens, he also has DYS442 at 13, as I do, another extremely rare count;
>however, in spite of these pairings, we otherwise have a GD of 15, so our
>joint ancestry must actually go back to near the beginnings of M222+, and I
>think this is a very good example of convergence in the midst of divergence.
>Now, the aforementioned Greers with Panel 4 results that match the modal
>(DYS444 excluded) have been assessed by the FTDNA algorithm(s) as R1b in all
>cases.
>
>My first question, then, is:
>Are the DYS values at the loci covered by FTDNA Panel 4 so stable that they
>likely predate M222+, or does the exact (or almost exact) match with the
>R1b1c7 modal - and a very large number of R1b1c7 members - belie the FTDNA
>statement "Please note that for any predicted results we see no reason for
>ordering a SNP test to confirm the Haplogroup", and and also enable us to
>confidently predict R1b1c7 for these individuals, given that they exactly
>match me in almost all cases, and I am SNP M222+?
>
>Second question:
>Given that every member of this name-group tested at DYS444 has an
>identical, but rare, allele count, but that also there is an internal GD of
>up to 6 or more between the individuals, how far away is the MRCA, assuming
>that somehow or other DYS444=13 is a family identifier?
>
>I am fascinated by the notion that, given the internal GD which I think is
>likely to take our combined MRCA back to well before the surname era,
>somehow all these families chose a varient of the same name, despite
>doubtless by the beginnings of surnames being well separated in location. It
>suggests that there was some kind of family identifier passed on through the
>generations.
>
>David, I will send you my spreadsheet in case my questions need elaboration.
>David Grierson in Melbourne
>
>
>
>-------------------------------
>To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
> with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
>quotes in the subject and the body of the message
>
>
>-------------------------------
>To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
>
>
>

This thread: