DNA-R1B1C7-L Archives

Archiver > DNA-R1B1C7 > 2008-01 > 1201417547


From: "" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA-R1B1C7] FTDNA Panel 4 Stability
Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 23:05:47 -0800
References: <479C2931.7030006@melbpc.org.au>
In-Reply-To: <479C2931.7030006@melbpc.org.au>


I would suggest that coincidence aside, that the results that clearly
identify by a very similar surname, can not predate the use of surnames,
otherwise this surname grouping would not occur.

Even though the trait in genetics may go much further back than the
surnames do, the focused group must be post-surname usage, and thus
have a common point of divergence in surname usage at or after the use
of surnames came into convention for that family.

Have you looked globally for others with matches, that have the common
trait you are looking at,

DYS444? Outside the 'official' R1B1c7 group?


J. David Grierson wrote:
> These questions are for David Wilson, but I think they are of general
> interest, and I would value comment from anybody.
>
> I have a number of what I identify as "Celtic" Grier(son)/Greers with
> the Panel 4 (ie loci 38-67) results almost identical to the R1b1c7 modal
> from YSearch. The only difference is in DYS444, which in ALL members of
> the Grier(son)Greer project is 13, a very rare result. Indeed, there
> appears to be only one other R1b1c7 member (16616 Conroy) with this
> score. As it happens, he also has DYS442 at 13, as I do, another
> extremely rare count; however, in spite of these pairings, we otherwise
> have a GD of 15, so our joint ancestry must actually go back to near the
> beginnings of M222+, and I think this is a very good example of
> convergence in the midst of divergence. Now, the aforementioned Greers
> with Panel 4 results that match the modal (DYS444 excluded) have been
> assessed by the FTDNA algorithm(s) as R1b in all cases.
>
> My first question, then, is:
> Are the DYS values at the loci covered by FTDNA Panel 4 so stable that
> they likely predate M222+, or does the exact (or almost exact) match
> with the R1b1c7 modal - and a very large number of R1b1c7 members -
> belie the FTDNA statement "Please note that for any predicted results we
> see no reason for ordering a SNP test to confirm the Haplogroup", and
> and also enable us to confidently predict R1b1c7 for these individuals,
> given that they exactly match me in almost all cases, and I am SNP M222+?
>
> Second question:
> Given that every member of this name-group tested at DYS444 has an
> identical, but rare, allele count, but that also there is an internal GD
> of up to 6 or more between the individuals, how far away is the MRCA,
> assuming that somehow or other DYS444=13 is a family identifier?
>
> I am fascinated by the notion that, given the internal GD which I think
> is likely to take our combined MRCA back to well before the surname era,
> somehow all these families chose a varient of the same name, despite
> doubtless by the beginnings of surnames being well separated in
> location. It suggests that there was some kind of family identifier
> passed on through the generations.
>
> David, I will send you my spreadsheet in case my questions need elaboration.
> David Grierson in Melbourne
>
>
>
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--


Jeffery G. Scism, IBSSG
~~

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