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Archiver > DNA-R1B1C7 > 2008-01 > 1201416497


From: "J. David Grierson" <>
Subject: [DNA-R1B1C7] FTDNA Panel 4 Stability
Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 17:48:17 +1100


These questions are for David Wilson, but I think they are of general
interest, and I would value comment from anybody.

I have a number of what I identify as "Celtic" Grier(son)/Greers with
the Panel 4 (ie loci 38-67) results almost identical to the R1b1c7 modal
from YSearch. The only difference is in DYS444, which in ALL members of
the Grier(son)Greer project is 13, a very rare result. Indeed, there
appears to be only one other R1b1c7 member (16616 Conroy) with this
score. As it happens, he also has DYS442 at 13, as I do, another
extremely rare count; however, in spite of these pairings, we otherwise
have a GD of 15, so our joint ancestry must actually go back to near the
beginnings of M222+, and I think this is a very good example of
convergence in the midst of divergence. Now, the aforementioned Greers
with Panel 4 results that match the modal (DYS444 excluded) have been
assessed by the FTDNA algorithm(s) as R1b in all cases.

My first question, then, is:
Are the DYS values at the loci covered by FTDNA Panel 4 so stable that
they likely predate M222+, or does the exact (or almost exact) match
with the R1b1c7 modal - and a very large number of R1b1c7 members -
belie the FTDNA statement "Please note that for any predicted results we
see no reason for ordering a SNP test to confirm the Haplogroup", and
and also enable us to confidently predict R1b1c7 for these individuals,
given that they exactly match me in almost all cases, and I am SNP M222+?

Second question:
Given that every member of this name-group tested at DYS444 has an
identical, but rare, allele count, but that also there is an internal GD
of up to 6 or more between the individuals, how far away is the MRCA,
assuming that somehow or other DYS444=13 is a family identifier?

I am fascinated by the notion that, given the internal GD which I think
is likely to take our combined MRCA back to well before the surname era,
somehow all these families chose a varient of the same name, despite
doubtless by the beginnings of surnames being well separated in
location. It suggests that there was some kind of family identifier
passed on through the generations.

David, I will send you my spreadsheet in case my questions need elaboration.
David Grierson in Melbourne


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