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Archiver > DNA-R1B1C7 > 2008-01 > 1201070300


From: "J. David Grierson" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA-R1B1C7] Dohertys and YCAab = 19-22
Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 17:38:20 +1100
References: <c09.2d342d43.34c80c5d@aol.com>
In-Reply-To: <c09.2d342d43.34c80c5d@aol.com>


John,
The second group of non-matching O'Neills exactly matches a number of
Greers, with both 10 and 11 occurring at 391. Unfortunately none are SNP
tested at the moment, but FT estimates their Hg as either R1b1 or R1b1c
- however, we know the unreliability of those estimates. One however,
has 67 markers, and the panel 4 zone has significant variation from most
M222+, so I doubt whether they are R1b1c7.
Regards
David Grierson

wrote:

>
>In a message dated 1/22/2008 5:35:25 P.M. Central Standard Time,
> writes:
>
>John to respond to your email, yes we do have a history in Scotland but I
>will start in Ireland with Aodh Alainn born abt 1037 in Ulster Ireland and
>his son, Dunsleve moved to Loch Fine Scotland and there they stayed for
>about 18 generations, then Iain (John) MacLachlan went back to Ireland were
>he died, his son Adam born 1698 in Ireland got on a ship and settled in PA.
>
>
>
>What you're quoting here is a version of the Anradan kindred origin story
>for the Maclachlans of Argyllshire. Aedh Alainn is the son of Anradan son of
>Aodh Athlaman, the King of Aileach and great-grandson of Flaithbertach an
>trostain, who died in 1036 A.D. Aodh Alainn is apparently the same person
>identified in other versions of the pedigrees as Buirch. The tale is an
>intriguing one for R1b1c7 McLaughlins from Scotland because the O'Neills of Ireland
>should also be R1b1c7 as descendants of Nial 'of the Nine Hostages' and
>descendents of this same Aodh Athlaman and Flaitbertach an trostain.
>
> I'm addressing this not so much to yourself but to anyone on the list who
>might find the subject interesting.
>
> This raises an interesting question though because the great majority of
>O'Neills in Ulster from the traditional homeland counties of the O'Neills are
>not R1b1c7. The Trinity study lists 8 R1b1c7 O'Neills from Ulster versus 19
>who are not R1b1c7 plus three O'Neills of non matching haplogroups (two I
>haplogroup and one R1a). Even worse the non R1b1c7 O'Neills appear to break
>down into two further non matching groups (13 vs. 6).
>
>So if the Anradan kindred in Scotland are descended from the O'Neills of
>Ireland, which DNA group should they match? And why are the R1b1c7 O'Neills in
>Ulster so greatly outnumbered by non matching O'Neills? We don't have any
>DNA samples from any of the recognized O'Neill chieftains which might shed some
>light on the issue. There are some McShane DNA samples (said to descend
>from the O'Neills) which match the largest group of non R1b1c7 O'Neills in
>Ireland. This suggests that at least one line of O'Neill chieftains are not
>R1b1c7. There were two great branches of the O'Neills in Ulster (Tryone and
>Clannaboy). Plus a sub-branch of Tyrone in Armagh called the Fews. The main two
>branches split apart in a fairly well documented pedigree affirmed by the
>Irish annals from two sons of Aodh Ua Neill ' the lazy youth', slain 1177 A.D.
>
>The main group of non R1b1c7 O'Neill DNA doesn't seem to match much of
>anything in Ireland (except as noted a few McShanes).
>
>The modal for the largest group of non R1b1c7 O'Neills is:
>
>13-24-14-11-12-15-[12]-12-11-13-13-30
>
>DYS 426 is in parenthesis because Trinity did not test this marker.
>
>The second group of non matching O'Neills is as follows:
>
>13-24-14-11 or 10-11-14-[12]-12-12-13-13-29
>
>One interesting test that might be accomplished is testing the chieftains of
>both the Tyrone and Clannaboy line, assuming some chieftains exist and their
>descent is not fudged. If they match then the conclusion is inevitable that
>the DNA carried back to Aodh 'the lazy youth' O'Neill, slain in 1177, direct
>ancestor of both branches.
>
>One interesting match is McNally (per McLysaght, Mac Con Uladh or the hound
>of Ulster). it mainly seems to be an Oriel (Airgialla) surname.
>
>The Trinity study did not address the question of O'Neill DNA nor did they
>it include the surname in their list of IMH surnames from NW Ireland, a curious
> omission, since the O'Neills were the dominant dynasty of the descendants of
> Nial in Ulster. One person associated with the Trinity study suggested that
>the R1b1c7 O'Neills were the true line and the non matching O'Neills were
>interlopers taken into the clan as followers (Patrick Guinness).
>
>
>John
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>**************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape.
>http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489
>
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