DNA-R1B1C7-L Archives

Archiver > DNA-R1B1C7 > 2008-01 > 1200880031


From: "Roisin & Niamh" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA-R1B1C7] DYS values for specific surnames
Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 12:47:11 +1100
In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20080119092337.0316ea10@mail.zianet.com>


Hi Marianne I'm the McHale below kit 75251, I noticed in a post on the web
your brother is a gd of 2 with a Gormley, is this Gormley also 455=12???.
In NW Mayo the following names have a value of 12 at 455
Dorsey,Manley,McHale,Gormley??????. What I find interesting is in Tribes of
Ui Fiachrach (O'Donovan) it mentions Clann Laoghaire of Ui Eathach Muaidhe
(Moy River Valley) some of the names in this clann are
O'Maolfoghmair(McHale), Ui Dorchaide (Dorsey) Ui Gormiallaigh (Gormley)I
have not found a reference for Munnelly/Monnelly??? is this just a
coincidence or is O'Donovan correct with the above??????? is 455 =12 the
marker for this clann???? Marianne, can you please let me know about the
Gormley value at 455.


Ray McHale

-----Original Message-----
From:
[mailto:]On Behalf Of Marianne Granoff
Sent: Sunday, 20 January 2008 4:42 AM
To:
Subject: Re: [DNA-R1B1C7] DYS values for specific surnames


I have been following with interest the discussion of individual DYS#
values as related to specific surnames from Donegal, especially the
Dohertys. My ancestors from County Mayo had the surname Munnelly or
Monnelly. This was usually eventually Anglicized to "Manley" in the US,
especially after the Molly Maguire trials and hangings in Pennsylvania in
the late 1870s. The Munnelly/Monnelly surname appears to be unique to
County Mayo in that it is found almost nowhere else before the 1800s. Even
in County Mayo, it is statistically uncommon.

I have recently come across information that this surname may have come
from a person named Monaoile O'Doherty. From two tales supposedly handed
down in other Munnelly/Monnelly families, (one in Kansas, one in Dublin) I
have been told:
"Our family started out as Dohertys. My ancestor killed an English land
agent (fully justified, I'm sure) and took in on the lam. He headed out
with his cattle and met an old witch or seer woman on the road. She told
him to follow his cattle and, where they settled down peacefully, he should
stay, too. It was a place called Ballymunnelly (in County Mayo). He took
the name of the town, and when his descendants emigrated to Canada (then
America), the name became Monley."
and
"In the early 1600's the English commenced planting the northern part of
Ireland with Scottish Presbyterians. The native Irish at that time had
their own laws (The Brehon Laws) and had a social structure made up of
clans, chieftains, etc. The Irish resisted this subjugation but in the
year 1607 the great earls, the O'Neills and the O'Donnells were defeated
and escaped from Co Donegal leaving for Europe. The clans were now at the
mercy of the English and were pushed back into the more mountainous areas
of Co Donegal. The name O'Doherty is still a common name in Donegal.

The story as I have heard it is that following the flight of the Earls, a
group of the fighting men of the O'Doherty clan moved southwards and
settled for a short while somewhere around the present day border. They
then continued further south and west finally settling at what is now
Ballymunnelly. (Bally means roughly "the place of".) It would not be far
from Bealacorric.
Now it is at this point that there is some ambiguity. One story is that
the leader of this group of O'Doherty's was called Monaoile O'Doherty. The
other is that those fighting men had had a title bestowed on them. This
title would translate into "Fighting men of Valour". It is here that the
name evolved. Today in County Mayo those people are called
"Munnellys". At the time, they were not yet called "Munnelly", as the
British influence had not yet caught up with them. They would would have
been referred to as (in the native language of course) "na Monaoile" (or
something that sounds and spells close to this). Na translates into
"the". The resulting male children would be O Monaoile, female "Ni". The O
means "from"."
The most reliable corroborative information that I have uncovered saying
that the Munnelly/Monnelly name came from a man of the Doherty clan is from
a couple of published references. From "Where the Sun Sets" by Father Sean
Noone (Page 333):
"BALLYMONNELLY in this townland was colonized by the O'Doherty clan of
Inishowen, Co. Donegal, according to John O'Donovan in the Ordinance Survey
Letters. Monaoile O'Doherty from whom the area takes its name was the first
to settle here. In the Composition of Connaught 1585, the area is called
Ballymonill."
My brother's DNA results (ID 9ZQQG on ysearch, and kit 74163 in the R1b1c7
Project) show a genetic distance of three with a variety of other surnames
from Ireland (Mayo and Donegal primarily) and Scotland. There are GD 3
matches with both Dohertys and McLaughlins.

The more unusual values that my brother's DNA results show are DYS 455 = 12
and DYS 449 = 31. I do not know the significance of these differences, if
any. There is one other kit with DYS 455 = 12 (McHale kit 75251). There
are quite a few kits with DYS 449 = 31, including many Cowans, Dohertys,
and Ewings, as well as a few Fergusons, McLaughlins and McDowells.

I am curious if anyone else is familiar with these tales of the
Munnelly/Monnelly surname coming from the Doherty clan, and if these DNA
values seem to substantiate the tale or if are these values not really
relevant.

Thank you for any help.

Marianne Manley Granoff
Albuquerque, NM

At 03:13 AM 1/19/2008 -0500, wrote:
>In a message dated 1/18/2008 10:03:02 P.M. Central Standard Time,
> writes:
>
>Of the the 56 classified as R1b1c7, 10 have DYS 447 = 24 (including
myself,
>as you know -- PKJH4 in your email below).? Of the 10 having DYS 447 = 24,
8
>of the 10 are clustered, with 6 of the 8 (the other 2 unknown) having
their
>paternal origin traced to either Clonmany Parish or adjoining
>Donagh Parish in
>the northeastern portion of the Inishowen peninsula.?
>
>
>Hello, Mike Nice to hear from you again. That's a higher percentage of
>Dohertys with DYS 447 = 24 than I realized (17.8%). I should clarify what
>we've done in the McLaughlin surname project.
>
>We have three or four DNA samples from McLaughins with definite origins in
>Donegal, L'Derry or Tyrone, including myself, from the townland of
>Rathdonnell, Donegal. We've grouped all these together in one large
>cluster we call the
> Donegal cluster. Almost without exception all also have DYS 576 = 17.
>Because of these definite origin identifications, we've have
>concluded this is
>the MacLochlainn of Donegal DNA signature.
>
>But we also have 10 other R1b1c7 McLaughlin samples that do not have
either
>of these two marker values. The origins for two of these say (Scotland or
>Glasgow, Scotland), one in Tyrone, the others are completely
>unknown. It's not
> impossible that some of these R1b1c7 McLaughlins actually belong to the
>McLaughlin of Donegal cluster. We just don't know. The sample
>from Glasgow,
>Scotland could be Irish in origin, since so many went to Scotland. When
>all is
>said and done we might wind up looking more like the Dohertys, with some
at
>DYS 447 = 24 and others at 25.
>
>I'm sure this is a problem a lot of Irish and Scottish clan societies and
>researchers face; getting definite locations for people who just don't know
>exactly where their ancestors came from.
>
>So while the McLaughlins of Donegal right now may look like a monolithic
>block at DYS 447 = 24 it's possible that may be misleading due to the
>lack of
>definite origins for most of our samples.
>
>We also have quite a few non R1b1c7 McLaughlin samples. Some say
Scotland,
>some Ireland, most don't know, none have any definite information on where
>their ancestors came from. Some of these could also conceivably fall
>into the
>McLaughlin of Donegal cluster as interlopers of some kind. I know the
>Dohertys have some non R1b1c7 from Donegal. We may well have some too.
>We also
>have several I haplogroup McLaughlins of unknown origin.
>
>We know from historical sources of at least three solid McLaughin surname
>groups in Ireland, the largest (based on entries in the Griffith's) being
>the
>McLaughlins of Donegal. But there was also a well-documented McLaughlin
>sept
>from Leitrim; and descendants of the O Melaghlins of Meath also wound up
>with
>the McLoughlin surname in Ireland. In Scotland of course we have Scottish
>Maclachlans, MacCauchlans, etc. And then there were other surnames
>corrupted
>over the centuries into McLaughlin.
>
>
>MacGiollasechalinn of Bregia.
>
>This name, if any survived into the present, would be anglicized
>McGillaghlin, with a tendency toward McGlaghlin. The chieftains of this
>tribe disappear
>from the annals very early (12th cent.) and the surname is never heard
from
>again.
>
>O Lachtnain
>
>This surname is properly O Loughnane, but the corruption tendency makes it
>Loughlin and even O'Loughlin or MacLoughlin or Loftus. The surname
>McLaughlin
>is numerous in the 1665 Hearth Money Rolls for Tipperary, a county which
had
>no native McLaughlin septs. It is obviously a corruption of some other
>Irish surname, O Loughnane being the main candidate. But it's equally
>possible
>these were O'Loughlins from Clare. If the latter we're in luck. We have
a
>DNA sample from an O'Loughlin of Clare (now in England) who matches the
>Irish
>Type III modal (Thomond), which is exactly what we might expect from an
>O'Loughlin of Burren in Clare. They have a pedigree from Ir which is odd
>and
>doesn't match the O'Brien pedigree.
>
>If anyone has a surname with DNA that doesn't match what you think it
should
>you might spend some time reading through McLysaght's surname books or
>Woulfe's earlier work. In each there are scores of examples of native
Irish
>surnames corrupted by the anglicization process into different, often
>unrecognizeable surnames, sometimes for the oddest reasons, such as
>pseudo translation.
>I recently ran across an O'Brien sample that puzzled the donor, since it
was
>R1b1c7 and didn't match any of the O'Briens in Ysearch. Well... this
>surname
>may not be O'Brien at all but O'Byrne, O'Brinn, or one of several similar
>Irish surnames common in Ui Neill or Connachta territory in Ireland.
>
>There is a surname English (C7N4C) Ysearch that is R1b1c7. Strange name
for
>an R1b1c7. One might assume it was English in origin. McLysaght mentions
>the possibility, based on l'Angleis and variant forms, in Ireland since
the
>13th century. He also refers to the Gallogly surname (Mac an
>Ghalloglaigh), or
>Mac Gallogly. The name means son of the gallowglass. McLysaght says it
>was originally from Donegal. Now changed to English and even Englishby in
>Antrim. Sometimes to Ingoldsby. As Gologly it still appears in Monaghan.
>
> You never know about some R1b1c7 samples lurking under strange
anglicized
>forms.
>
>
>
>John
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>**************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape.
>http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489
>
>-------------------------------
>To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
> with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
>quotes in the subject and the body of the message
>
>
>
>--
>No virus found in this incoming message.
>Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.7/1232 - Release Date: 1/18/2008
>7:32 PM

-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
quotes in the subject and the body of the message

__________ NOD32 2807 (20080119) Information __________

This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
http://www.eset.com


This thread: