DNA-R1B1C7-L ArchivesArchiver > DNA-R1B1C7 > 2008-01 > 1200861855
Subject: Re: [DNA-R1B1C7] Some Musings on R1b1c7
Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 15:44:15 EST
In a message dated 1/20/2008 8:02:34 A.M. Central Standard Time,
names Kenelman and Muntercasduff both point to Gaelic practices of naming
family groups. To me, Muntercasduff points to a family that grew up around
religious community, whereas, Kenel points to something slightly different.
sure what though?
Why some families are named clann, others muinter, siol, etc. is a mystery
to me. They all imply basically the same thing - a descent from a common
ancestor. We see that in Donegal records as well. The Mclaughlins in Donegal
were called Clann Lochlainn. How about this variation: clanlaughlangrilles.
They're a branch of the McLaughlins (clann Laughlan) that were herenaghs of
Greallagh (grille). In 17th century inquisitions into the ownership of
church lands we also have:
Every one of these families, including the Mclaughlins, were herenagh
families of some kind. Muinter and clann are the only two terms used. You also
see forms like "the sept of Owen Sallagh O'Donill."
Cenel is different from clann (children of). I don't see this used much
except in a broader tribal sense (Cenel Eoghain, Cenel Conaill, etc.).
The O'Clery genealogies also freely employ the same terms.
Muintir an Chaisleain Nui
This last is a branch of the O'Dohertys - O'Doherty of New Castle.
Feodachain or Peodachain is a territory in Fermanagh. This applies to the
Mac Giolla Finneins.
Do Mhuintir an Glenda Cettna
The last is another branch of the O'Dohertys - the people of said glenn
Another O'Doherty branch - the people or family of the Island of Inch.
A branch of the O'Boyles - the seed of Richard
Cenel Moain Indso
This one is more a tribe name (the tribe name of the O'Gormleys and related
families), sharing a common ancestor Moain great-grandson of Nial.
The tribe name of the O'Brolchains - themselves called Muinter Brolchain.
In Donegal at least in early 17th century records (1609 Inquistions and
O'Clery) there's a pretty clear pattern of Muinter and clan referring to
individual septs within a given tribe and cenel referring to the large clan grouping.
Each is based on the name of a founder, cenel generally being much further
in the remote past.
Some of the names given above from the inquisitions are so corrupt it's
almost impossible to figure out what the names mean. i think the
Mounterhassidies were probably O'Cassidys. The name appears as a principal Irish name in
the 1658 census. No one I've talked to has any idea who some of the others are
I notice Ballemuntercasduff’ is translated on your site as 'town or village’
of the people of Casduff. I think in Ireland they often translate this as
"homestead" of, implying not so much a village or town but land owned by the
sept. There are a lot of these placenames in Ireland too. The O Clery
genealogies use Muinter in combination with place names as well. In the examples
above it's used for branches of the O'Dohertys and the MacGiolla Finneins.
You're working with some interesting material. I hope you can puzzle out
the meaning someday. It's a shame these designations were never written down
and codified in pedigree collections or topographical poems.
This kind of material is much more interesting than the vague Cenel Loarn,
Cenel Gabrain, Cenel Comgaill and Cenel nOengusa of the Shenchus Fer nAlban.
The entire corpus of pedigrees in Skene's ms. is deduced from the Cenel
Loarn. But with so many gaps and missing generations it can't possibly be
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