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Archiver > DNA-R1B1C7 > 2008-01 > 1200749597

Subject: Re: [DNA-R1B1C7] Some Musings on R1b1c7
Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 08:33:17 EST

In a message dated 17/01/2008 15:30:52 GMT Standard Time,

After a long period of resistance, I am finally allowing myself to consider
the possibility that the majority of the variance we see in R1b1c7
haplotypes today is the product of the last thousand years. It is
interesting to me that distinctive allele values, when found, are usually
associated with individual families, but not with groups of families. With
rare exceptions, there are almost no close regional associations with
particular allele values. It is hard to spot candidate alleles that would
unite two families to the exclusion of all others, and in cases where a rare
allele value is seen in two different families, it is apparently the result
of independent mutations because each family's other distinctive allele
values are not shared. If I recall correctly, a few months ago someone
reported (John, was that you?) the star-like nature of a network analysis of
the available R1b1c7 haplotypes. There were no leggy structures or
pronounced branches to the picture -- there was a core area with elements
radiating in all directions, which is what we should expect only 30 or 40
(my suggested numbers, so don't blame anybody else) generations downstream
from a founder.


Its good to hear your thoughts on the current state of play regarding the
range of variance within the R1b1c7 and the possibility that these have occurred
within the last 1000 years. In our Project, which is slowly growing, we
have a Surgeon on the team who has a healthy sense of scepticism about the
calculations used to work out mutation rates and estimates to a TMRCA. We have
found that there is a higher degree of mutations spread over certain genetic
markers than we were first were lead to understand. We have identified four
subgroups and set them out in a spreadsheet starting from the oldest to the most
recent mutated branch. We have paper trails for nearly ever result, which
makes a huge difference. For me, I think there has been a faster rate of change
over the last 1000 years, which makes it slightly more challenging to work
out the DNA Signature of the patriarch of our surname.

When you say "It is interesting to me that distinctive allele values, when
found, are usually
associated with individual families, but not with groups of families. With
rare exceptions, there are almost no close regional associations with
particular allele values."

Here is one to consider. I have been working on another Surname that shows
up in your Results Spreadsheet, namely, McCord. I hadn't realised until a few
months back just how many samples had been added to the Spreadsheet until I
extracted them all. When I looked at them in more detail, I was surprised to
find the pattern of results was very close to our own Project. The surname
McCord is very old and in Scotland, can be traced to a family who lived near
Wigtown. Its much older form appears as McGorth as early as 1344. About this
time, Michael McGorth was appointed captian or chief of the "Kenelman" or Maine
in Galloway. As far as I can determine, the reference to the Gaelic term
"Kenel" in Kenelman, is the only one to be found in Galloway. It is distinct and
provides a direct comparison for our Project. I wish I knew more about this
Clan, as I firmly believe it holds the clue for the Galloway distribution. Do
you know if there is a McCord DNA Project?

When I looked at a comparison of the McCord = Milliken/Milligan results, I
took into account the number of shared genetic markers with values that were
the same, before looking at the differences. Other factors taken into account
included a knowledge of the surname's history and known genealogical paper
trails. For our own Surname Project, we can show a solid trail of evidence, a
good part of which is online, that has a history attached to one region
dating back to the 12th century, over 800 years of history in Galloway and parts
of Dumfriesshire. We also have confirmed M222 SNP tests. The McCords also have
a strong attachment to one region that can be traced back to the 14th
century and beyond. The question is, what would the DNA Signature between these two
families look like back in the 12th century. When I compared the two McCord
and Milliken/Milligan results, with links to Scotland, they matched at 32 out
of 37 markers.

Rather than apply the conventional methods of calcuating relatedness, I
looked at the five markers which all showed a one step mutation to check which
showed the highest degree of unstableness. One could be eliminated, marker DYS
CDYa. That left four. I noted that at marker DYS 439 the McCord DNA group
showed two variable alleles of 11 and 12. When comparing the two Surnames
results, they differed between 11 (McCord) and 12 (M/M). However, there was a
probability that the Milliken/Milligan result at 12 alleles could also be matched
at 12 alleles which is the dominant McCord allele at DYS 439. That left 3
markers, DYS 607, 576, 442, all one step mutations. FTDNA report that DYS 576
also has an observed faster mutation rate. Given we are comparing to family
surnames, rather than two individuals within the same family surname, it seems
to me the McCords and Milliken/Milligan are more related than current methods
for estimations might give credit. I also know one other piece of
inforamtion, as far back as the 1400s, the McCords and Amuliganes lived within a short
distance of each other in and around the old burgh of Wigtown, which increases
the probability factor.

It is interesting, that less than half of the McCord results have the value
of 11 alleles at marker 439 with the rest having the value of 12. In your
Results Spreadsheet, this cluster is highlighted at 11 alleles. You'll note that
a good number of the surnames in this section are Scottish? There are a
number of Dunbars mentioned. Most people when they see this surname and are
familiar with the background immediately think of the Earls of Dunbar and their
kindred. Dunbar is a common surname and there must be alot of people whose
ancestry took the name, but are genetically unrelated. Several families appear in
Galloway, Dumfriesshire and Ayrshire. It is anyones guess as to how they are
related to the principal family of this name. I have been looking at
surnames that are linked by locality, such as, McWhirter in Ayrshire or McDowall in
Galloway. Both these families lived in areas where the McCords lived. I'm
seeing a fair degree of nonpaternity and cross over between kindred families.

I think the McCords and Milliken/Milligans share a MRCA and currently I am
searching the archives of various Scottish repositories to try and find a
documentation to support this further back. I'm not confident, but you never know!


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