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Archiver > DNA-R1B1C7 > 2008-01 > 1200744890


From: Daniel Jenkins <>
Subject: Re: [DNA-R1B1C7] R1b1c7 and DYS 447 = 24
Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 12:14:50 +0000
References: <bf5.25d5beb2.34c30b22@aol.com>
In-Reply-To: <bf5.25d5beb2.34c30b22@aol.com>


John,

After your post , I checked my uncles markers [92VDK] , as you know he is one off at 37 with Sean G. [CDJ57], and also one off at a different marker with Hugh G/ Terri
DPUSJ. My uncle is 25 at 447 as is Hugh. G. . While Sean is the 24.

Now what was surprising was the results of U3GXW , 13 off from above and
HPWFP 14 off , and they 18 off from each other .
This is showing some wide diversity .

Here is a list of names that are one or 2 off of my Uncle Dan. G. at 37 markers :
1---McKee, Holt Jr.

2----McHargue,Burns, Higgins, Blayney,Bryson, McHargue ,Lane,Blandy, Boice, Maddox,
Cowan , Reed , and [Jerman???] .
At 3 or more list gets quite large with many names .

I don't know if this is telling me anything , maybe you might see something .

I already have SNPs , so now I have to extend Dan out to all available markers to see what happens .

Hopefully the 2 matches will hold .
The ancestors of these 3 were very geaographically close between Derry City and
Quigleys Point at Inishowen just upstream accross the Fyle .
I am somewhat confident of a common ancester in the mid to late 1700s.

I havn't found any Dohertys close yet .

Dan Jenkins

> From: > Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 03:13:22 -0500> To: > Subject: Re: [DNA-R1B1C7] R1b1c7 and DYS 447 = 24> > In a message dated 1/18/2008 10:03:02 P.M. Central Standard Time, > writes:> > Of the the 56 classified as R1b1c7, 10 have DYS 447 = 24 (including myself, > as you know -- PKJH4 in your email below).? Of the 10 having DYS 447 = 24, 8 > of the 10 are clustered, with 6 of the 8 (the other 2 unknown) having their > paternal origin traced to either Clonmany Parish or adjoining Donagh Parish in > the northeastern portion of the Inishowen peninsula.? > > > Hello, Mike Nice to hear from you again. That's a higher percentage of > Dohertys with DYS 447 = 24 than I realized (17.8%). I should clarify what > we've done in the McLaughlin surname project.> > We have three or four DNA samples from McLaughins with definite origins in > Donegal, L'Derry or Tyrone, including myself, from the townland of > Rathdonnell, Donegal. We've grouped all these together in one large cluster we call the > Donegal cluster. Almost without exception all also have DYS 576 = 17. > Because of these definite origin identifications, we've have concluded this is > the MacLochlainn of Donegal DNA signature.> > But we also have 10 other R1b1c7 McLaughlin samples that do not have either > of these two marker values. The origins for two of these say (Scotland or > Glasgow, Scotland), one in Tyrone, the others are completely unknown. It's not > impossible that some of these R1b1c7 McLaughlins actually belong to the > McLaughlin of Donegal cluster. We just don't know. The sample from Glasgow, > Scotland could be Irish in origin, since so many went to Scotland. When all is > said and done we might wind up looking more like the Dohertys, with some at > DYS 447 = 24 and others at 25. > > I'm sure this is a problem a lot of Irish and Scottish clan societies and > researchers face; getting definite locations for people who just don't know > exactly where their ancestors came from.> > So while the McLaughlins of Donegal right now may look like a monolithic > block at DYS 447 = 24 it's possible that may be misleading due to the lack of > definite origins for most of our samples.> > We also have quite a few non R1b1c7 McLaughlin samples. Some say Scotland, > some Ireland, most don't know, none have any definite information on where > their ancestors came from. Some of these could also conceivably fall into the > McLaughlin of Donegal cluster as interlopers of some kind. I know the > Dohertys have some non R1b1c7 from Donegal. We may well have some too. We also > have several I haplogroup McLaughlins of unknown origin.> > We know from historical sources of at least three solid McLaughin surname > groups in Ireland, the largest (based on entries in the Griffith's) being the > McLaughlins of Donegal. But there was also a well-documented McLaughlin sept > from Leitrim; and descendants of the O Melaghlins of Meath also wound up with > the McLoughlin surname in Ireland. In Scotland of course we have Scottish > Maclachlans, MacCauchlans, etc. And then there were other surnames corrupted > over the centuries into McLaughlin. > > > MacGiollasechalinn of Bregia.> > This name, if any survived into the present, would be anglicized > McGillaghlin, with a tendency toward McGlaghlin. The chieftains of this tribe disappear > from the annals very early (12th cent.) and the surname is never heard from > again.> > O Lachtnain> > This surname is properly O Loughnane, but the corruption tendency makes it > Loughlin and even O'Loughlin or MacLoughlin or Loftus. The surname McLaughlin > is numerous in the 1665 Hearth Money Rolls for Tipperary, a county which had > no native McLaughlin septs. It is obviously a corruption of some other > Irish surname, O Loughnane being the main candidate. But it's equally possible > these were O'Loughlins from Clare. If the latter we're in luck. We have a > DNA sample from an O'Loughlin of Clare (now in England) who matches the Irish > Type III modal (Thomond), which is exactly what we might expect from an > O'Loughlin of Burren in Clare. They have a pedigree from Ir which is odd and > doesn't match the O'Brien pedigree.> > If anyone has a surname with DNA that doesn't match what you think it should > you might spend some time reading through McLysaght's surname books or > Woulfe's earlier work. In each there are scores of examples of native Irish > surnames corrupted by the anglicization process into different, often > unrecognizeable surnames, sometimes for the oddest reasons, such as pseudo translation. > I recently ran across an O'Brien sample that puzzled the donor, since it was > R1b1c7 and didn't match any of the O'Briens in Ysearch. Well... this surname > may not be O'Brien at all but O'Byrne, O'Brinn, or one of several similar > Irish surnames common in Ui Neill or Connachta territory in Ireland.> > There is a surname English (C7N4C) Ysearch that is R1b1c7. Strange name for > an R1b1c7. One might assume it was English in origin. McLysaght mentions > the possibility, based on l'Angleis and variant forms, in Ireland since the > 13th century. He also refers to the Gallogly surname (Mac an Ghalloglaigh), or > Mac Gallogly. The name means son of the gallowglass. McLysaght says it > was originally from Donegal. Now changed to English and even Englishby in > Antrim. Sometimes to Ingoldsby. As Gologly it still appears in Monaghan.> > You never know about some R1b1c7 samples lurking under strange anglicized > forms.> > > > John> > > > > > > > **************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. > http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489>; > -------------------------------> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
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