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From:
Subject: Re: [DNA-R1B1C7] R1b1c7 and DYS 447 = 24
Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 03:13:22 EST


In a message dated 1/18/2008 10:03:02 P.M. Central Standard Time,
writes:

Of the the 56 classified as R1b1c7, 10 have DYS 447 = 24 (including myself,
as you know -- PKJH4 in your email below).? Of the 10 having DYS 447 = 24, 8
of the 10 are clustered, with 6 of the 8 (the other 2 unknown) having their
paternal origin traced to either Clonmany Parish or adjoining Donagh Parish in
the northeastern portion of the Inishowen peninsula.?


Hello, Mike Nice to hear from you again. That's a higher percentage of
Dohertys with DYS 447 = 24 than I realized (17.8%). I should clarify what
we've done in the McLaughlin surname project.

We have three or four DNA samples from McLaughins with definite origins in
Donegal, L'Derry or Tyrone, including myself, from the townland of
Rathdonnell, Donegal. We've grouped all these together in one large cluster we call the
Donegal cluster. Almost without exception all also have DYS 576 = 17.
Because of these definite origin identifications, we've have concluded this is
the MacLochlainn of Donegal DNA signature.

But we also have 10 other R1b1c7 McLaughlin samples that do not have either
of these two marker values. The origins for two of these say (Scotland or
Glasgow, Scotland), one in Tyrone, the others are completely unknown. It's not
impossible that some of these R1b1c7 McLaughlins actually belong to the
McLaughlin of Donegal cluster. We just don't know. The sample from Glasgow,
Scotland could be Irish in origin, since so many went to Scotland. When all is
said and done we might wind up looking more like the Dohertys, with some at
DYS 447 = 24 and others at 25.

I'm sure this is a problem a lot of Irish and Scottish clan societies and
researchers face; getting definite locations for people who just don't know
exactly where their ancestors came from.

So while the McLaughlins of Donegal right now may look like a monolithic
block at DYS 447 = 24 it's possible that may be misleading due to the lack of
definite origins for most of our samples.

We also have quite a few non R1b1c7 McLaughlin samples. Some say Scotland,
some Ireland, most don't know, none have any definite information on where
their ancestors came from. Some of these could also conceivably fall into the
McLaughlin of Donegal cluster as interlopers of some kind. I know the
Dohertys have some non R1b1c7 from Donegal. We may well have some too. We also
have several I haplogroup McLaughlins of unknown origin.

We know from historical sources of at least three solid McLaughin surname
groups in Ireland, the largest (based on entries in the Griffith's) being the
McLaughlins of Donegal. But there was also a well-documented McLaughlin sept
from Leitrim; and descendants of the O Melaghlins of Meath also wound up with
the McLoughlin surname in Ireland. In Scotland of course we have Scottish
Maclachlans, MacCauchlans, etc. And then there were other surnames corrupted
over the centuries into McLaughlin.


MacGiollasechalinn of Bregia.

This name, if any survived into the present, would be anglicized
McGillaghlin, with a tendency toward McGlaghlin. The chieftains of this tribe disappear
from the annals very early (12th cent.) and the surname is never heard from
again.

O Lachtnain

This surname is properly O Loughnane, but the corruption tendency makes it
Loughlin and even O'Loughlin or MacLoughlin or Loftus. The surname McLaughlin
is numerous in the 1665 Hearth Money Rolls for Tipperary, a county which had
no native McLaughlin septs. It is obviously a corruption of some other
Irish surname, O Loughnane being the main candidate. But it's equally possible
these were O'Loughlins from Clare. If the latter we're in luck. We have a
DNA sample from an O'Loughlin of Clare (now in England) who matches the Irish
Type III modal (Thomond), which is exactly what we might expect from an
O'Loughlin of Burren in Clare. They have a pedigree from Ir which is odd and
doesn't match the O'Brien pedigree.

If anyone has a surname with DNA that doesn't match what you think it should
you might spend some time reading through McLysaght's surname books or
Woulfe's earlier work. In each there are scores of examples of native Irish
surnames corrupted by the anglicization process into different, often
unrecognizeable surnames, sometimes for the oddest reasons, such as pseudo translation.
I recently ran across an O'Brien sample that puzzled the donor, since it was
R1b1c7 and didn't match any of the O'Briens in Ysearch. Well... this surname
may not be O'Brien at all but O'Byrne, O'Brinn, or one of several similar
Irish surnames common in Ui Neill or Connachta territory in Ireland.

There is a surname English (C7N4C) Ysearch that is R1b1c7. Strange name for
an R1b1c7. One might assume it was English in origin. McLysaght mentions
the possibility, based on l'Angleis and variant forms, in Ireland since the
13th century. He also refers to the Gallogly surname (Mac an Ghalloglaigh), or
Mac Gallogly. The name means son of the gallowglass. McLysaght says it
was originally from Donegal. Now changed to English and even Englishby in
Antrim. Sometimes to Ingoldsby. As Gologly it still appears in Monaghan.

You never know about some R1b1c7 samples lurking under strange anglicized
forms.



John







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